Testers Needed!

I'm not confused, just bemused that some asshole changed this in the evolution from 1st edition to 3rd (.5) edition. It makes no sense. Bugbears are over 7' tall, and are very heavy-bodied. They get the reach because they are big, have long arms, and use big weapons. Just like humans have size advantages over goblins, so bugbears have them over humans.

S = goblin
M = human
L = bugbear

This should never have been changed.

No disagreement here...but almost none of them would be wearing that; except for the aforementioned odd piece or two.

 

Well, the thing is, goblins and halflings are half the size of normal humans, which accounts for the size category difference. Bugbears are only a foot taller. It's not enough to make that big of a difference from a rules standpoint, though I agree it's kind of illogical that a human could wear armor sized for a bugbear. Then again, it's also illogical that the same human could wear armor sized for an elf or dwarf, but the by the rules they can.

 

The armor you added for the goblins is size_medium, not size_small. Of course, as far as the game is concerned, a halfling can wear size_medium armor.

Decision time folks.

Do we leave the bugbear armor's lootable, or do we make them NO_LOOT?

If we leave them lootable, do we make the bugbear (and gnoll) weapons lootable? Keep in mind that some of the animations for some of the bugbear weapons do not look right when wielded by non-bugbears.

The third options, the one Allyx suggested, is to make the bugbear weapons weightless and add weapons the party can use to the bugbears inventories. This is not something I am willing to do the work for, but I mention it anyway.

 

The other thing is that height is only one of the dimensions in which they differ. Humans used to not be able to wear magic armor sized for an Elf. Or a Dwarf. Or a halfling. Or a goblin. This was when the rule of bugbears being size "L" existed. I still think these changes have not improved the quality of the game, and weren't necessary; and in fact make no sense. Magical armor sized for humans fit all humans; not all creatures of the same size category. BTW, goblins are more like 2/3 human size, not half...and humans are like 4/5 bugbear size...so I still say they are proportionally more like what I said than what you've said.

Doubtless your rulebooks will have it listed differently. Which is why I stopped buying them 20+ years ago. The Second Edition stupefied the game, and the third (including .5) - while trying to get back to basics - is still catering to the crowd which grew up with the mmorpg. It's also a moneymaking proposition for those holding the license, and I for one choose not to pad their pockets. I already own a complete gaming system. And I've never made any pretense that my opinions are based on anything other than the system I know. So, if you don't mind, I'll state my opinion of things, thank you very much.

It's a stupid new rule.

EDIT: Keep it as simple and sensible as practical.

 

This may very well have been their reasoning, but I still don't agree with it. Only 20% of humans were even possibly over 6' tall. This leaves 80% at 6' or less; and this only really covers adventurers (who are exceptional humans), not commoners. While good, your example is an exception, not the rule. Bugbears are much bigger than humans; so much so that they were made size "L" by the designers of the original game. Height, weight, girth, density...all these things are taken into consideration. The common human is level-0, has 1-6 HP, and is scrawney by comparison to something which is 7' tall at a minimum, very heavy bodied, and with 3+1 hit dice. A hell of a lot bigger, tougher, & meaner.

 

make it all lootable and use Allyxs idea for the bugbears weapons.

 

and besides my 7' halforc fighter dosen't mind the smell of bugbear sweat

 

I'm with Allyx on this one--after almost 20 years of DMing where a good third of my PCs have been of the "OK, strip the corpses naked and pile their equipment on the cart to take back to town!" style, I've picked up that nasty habit myself... every copper counts, doncha know.

Besides, no need to suffer through bugbear sweat--there's a 0-level spell ("clean" for you, Spike, "prestidigitation" for everyone else) that will take that right out. :errf:

Oh, and Spike, you and I should have a chat sometime about old vs. new D&D. I was of your opinion for quite some time, but finally decided to make the switch when I realized that the new version made a lot of the old house rules I had kludged together for logic's sake officially part of the game. Maybe I can assimilate you too. :yes:

--Blair
"Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey hey, DAMNIT Grungar, stop stealing my kills!"

 

Yah, every pnp game of AD&D was always "nothing of resale value gets left behind; stack it in a pile and we'll pick it up on the way out and pile it on the wagon and mules".

uhm - Aren't the spells called "Tide" and "Mass Tide"? (haha)

IMO - Concerning pnp D&D, the new rules are okay as long as they coincide with the old rules or have not changed.

 

I thought I had added small armor where it was available, but I could be wrong. I know there's only a limited number of armors that have a small version.

Personally, I think the armor should be lootable. If someone wants to go through the work to change all the bugbear and gnoll weapons to weightless, then add useable versions to their inventory, they're welcome to it, but I don't think it's worth the effort. Also, a lot of the bugbears are equipped with random weaponry. Would their loot match up with the weapon they're using?

@Spike, in 3.x Large means something different than it did in previous editions. Different size categories have effects on attack, AC, skills, reach, etc. The difference in size between a bugbear and a human is not significant enough to warrant those modifiers.

Do I think it's logical that the party's half-orc barbarian, dwarven fighter, human cleric and elven rogue could all concieveably wear the same suit of non-magical armor? No. But by the rules they can and I'm willing to accept some limitations of realism for the sake of easier book-keeping.

 

Okay Allyx, you write the script if you think it would be so easy.

I am just adding the lootable armor. That is all I am willing to do atm. If someone else wants to go back after I'm done and do something about the weapons, or better yet take this project over and do it all now, more power to them.

 

Speaking of bugbears, just where did the Greater Temple ones come from? Are they unique to ToEE or part of offical 3.5 rules?