What to do about Dominate Suggestable Monster

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by Kalshane, Oct 28, 2006.

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How should Suggestion be handled?

Poll closed Nov 11, 2006.
  1. Leave it alone. I like being able to control everything in the game with a 3rd level spell.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Remove Suggestion from the game, using the code as the basis for Dominate Monster

    73.1%
  3. Let the spell function as-is, but tweak it to be less powerful (shorten the duration)

    26.9%
  1. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

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    There was some discussion of this in the Atari buglist thread. The gist is that Suggestion, as currently implemented in ToEE, is thoroughly broken. By adding a creature of any type to your party as an NPC, it functions just like Dominate Monster, which is a 9th level spell (Suggestion is 3rd level for Sorcerers/Wizards and 2nd level for Bards).

    Here's what the rules have to say about Suggestion:

    It allows you to compel a creature to follow a course of action that sounds reasonable to the creature. "Turn against all of your allies and serve my every whim" is not a reasonable suggestion, which is what it effectively does now.

    There are even creatures in the game, like the Balor, who would normally have Dominate Monster as a special ability and Suggestion is given to them instead.

    What does the community think we should do about this horribly over-powered spell?

    I didn't list re-working the spell to comply much closer to the rules because someone would have to volunteer to perform the work on that, whereas the 3 options listed are much easier tweaks to make.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2006
  2. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

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    I say option 2 with a splash of option 3 in there.
     
  3. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    *casts Suggestion* I suggest we change the "Suggestion" spell into a Dominate Monster. Perhaps we can make a more suitable Suggestion spell that functions more like a command spell in the future.
     
  4. Old Book

    Old Book Established Member

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    Any way to swap it out with Charm Monster or similar, maybe with tweaks to Duration and Saves to get it closer to the tabletop Suggestion spell?
     
  5. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    I agree entirely with Allyx and his suggestion.
     
  6. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Option 2; make it as rules compliant to the 9th level spell as possible. Do something else for replacing the 3rd level spell.
     
  7. Cuchulainn

    Cuchulainn Windmill Tilter

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    yeah I agree with, umm, everybody. Now how often do you get to say that? You'd almost think our will was being dominated. ;)

    Cuchulainn.
     
  8. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    QFT. Reading that description, it opens a lot of role-playing possibilities for Suggestion: casting it on an NPC before dialogue could open up a whole new area of chatter for instance, as u use the spell to order the creature to do something.

    Very interesting...
     
  9. Hazelnut

    Hazelnut Great Confusor

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    Remove it, unless it can be made more rules compliant. Do you have any ideas for this based on what's possible in the game Kalshane? I think that the nearest effect I can think of is command, the level 1 cleric spell where you can choose from four commands:

    Approach
    On its turn, the subject moves toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round. The creature may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.

    Drop
    On its turn, the subject drops whatever it is holding. It can’t pick up any dropped item until its next turn.

    Fall
    On its turn, the subject falls to the ground and remains prone for 1 round. It may act normally while prone but takes any appropriate penalties.

    Flee
    On its turn, the subject moves away from you as quickly as possible for 1 round. It may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.

    Halt
    The subject stands in place for 1 round. It may not take any actions but is not considered helpless.


    Suggestion could use this for more than one round - what do you think?
     
  10. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

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    The same as command, but more than round makes it very similar to Greater Command, which isn't neccessarily a bad thing (Greater Command is higher level, but also lets you effect more than one creature). But the choose from some specific options is definitely the best way to go. We can either stick with the Command options, or come up with different ones. The problem is coming up with Suggestions that are reasonable within a combat situation. (Or else come up with a way for it have different options whether you cast it in combat or outside of it.)
     
  11. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

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    well as alot of NPCs are CE I don't think many of them would think "stab that guy" unreasonable.
     
  12. Old Book

    Old Book Established Member

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    Can you cast Suggestion on your Chicken animal companion, have it level up as a barbarian, let it leave the party when the spell expires, still retain it as a companion, and end up with a Loyal Chicken Berserker Companion?

    Just wondering. ;)
     
  13. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

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    It's unreasonable if "that guy" is an ally. Yes, CE doesn't have much in the way of loyalty or friendship or any of that, but CE also knows if he just turns around and stabs his ally, all of his other allies are going to stab him in return.
     
  14. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Suggestions like "attack that person" or "defend me" could be very reasonable, though. I don't know how to account for all the variables in situations which may occur.
     
  15. JerryB

    JerryB Established Member

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    I like it fine the way it is. As the spell stands it is a way to gain interesting NPCs attached to your party without them having been modded to be joinable. I've had a moathoouse brigand, a lizard man, and most recently Falrinth. I realy had fun leveling the lizard man up as a fighter/barbarian.

    While it may not be rules compliant, it makes the game far more interesting if someone wants an unusual party composition.

    We could do my LE Horned Society party, as an example, and add Hobgoblins from wandering encounters as melee troops to suplement the diabolic monk, cleric, and wizard that represent the heirarchs.

    I may want to do a campaign based on a pirate crew ashore and build a three character PC party with a sorcerer specializing in air and water based magics, a thief with a cutlass, and a cleric of some seafaring deity, and then get fighter muscle from the first band of crossbow weilding pirates that we encounter. "Ahoy Matey, welcome to the press gang!"

    Someone else may want to do an evil elven party and snag drow from the moathouse respawn or from verbobonc to build a small starting party up to size.

    With Suggestion as written, a medium level party can begin to diversify into anything the player's imagination can conceive in the way that you can in pencil and paper, for example cooperating with lizard men in a raid on Sahuagan, or offering to combine with a party of wandering NPC adventurers. I think that's worth a little rule breaking.
     
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