Just for the sake of argument, I'm curious as to just what is the definition of modding and cheating? Example: I've modified protos for Fruella to put her close to equal with Elmo, with console help. I can"t stand that swaying and the 200GP price tag. Example 2: I would usually take a buffed up Burne to the temple. Now I roll up a new pc wizard and use the console to put it up to the same specs/level that Burne is. So, we have Fruella instead of Elmo. Fruella has scale armor/shield and cleaver. HP is 40ish. STR18. Very close to Elmo's specs. The wizard has nearly exact what Burne would have. So, am I severely cheating or are these sensible mods that makes the game more enjoyable for me. There seems to be a wide difference of opinon from the "purist" to the do what you want crew. Fragarach and Scather at level 1 is kind of out. I like to stay within the context and rules of the game. I'm still not sure what is modding and what is cheating.
Well I have just spent a few minutes trying to define 'cheating' (mainly around using the console etc to get around the challenges in the game - I don't think your examples count by that definition, nor should they) but I just don't think there is a hard and fast division between the two. People know deep down if they are improving the game (from their perspective) or if they are cheating, and I guess in the end they are only cheating themselves.
If thats how you like the game to be then I don't think it's cheating, you seem to have restraint, and I don't see why you shouldn't mod Fruella to how you like her, I wanted a male fighter that wasn't elmo so I made Zert better.
I have a very straightforward definition of cheating (at least for myself): cheating is making the game easier by tweaking it to your needs (usually without the feel of limit), e.g. making a character with all stats 30+, giving yourself a greatsword +20 with +20d6 damage, etc. etc. Modding is modifying the game to add extra content or modify existing content in such a way that the game becomes better (at least in someone's opinion) - more interesting, more detailed, and so on. If changing Fruella a little bit feels better for you - of course feel free to mod her and it won't be cheating (at least as long as you don't buff her up in such a way that she can crush a balor or a giant with a single hit and she doesn't even need a party to support her ) Technically speaking your modifications *could* be regarded by someone as cheating (since the game wasn't supposed to be that way), but in my opinion it's not cheating, especially given the small number of options in the original game (so a little difference will feel better, not worse, especially if it makes you happy). - Agetian
You can't "Cheat". It's a solo game. You can make the game so easy as to be pointless. You can break the rules. You can't cheat. A modder can make a monster that does not obey the rules of the game. So can any DM in a tabletop game, right back to Gary G himself, and that smegger did it whenever the story called for it. If you see the games as "me vs the DM/Modder", then that may be cheating, though on the other hand it may be bad rules design; the rules are there to simulate a genre and help tell a story, and if they don't work, sometimes you need to change them. I play with a 25 point or 50 point Point Buy; I do not reload, I do not mod in uber items, and if a character dies I do not raise him from the dead. I play this way because the game is much too easy most of the time, and this at least makes it fun. If I use NPCs, I re-build them in the Protos tab to follow the same guidelines, and arange their feats to fill the party role I need them to play. I also use the scroll scribing and crafting rules as applied in ToEE to make cool stuff for my party. I do not see any of the above as cheating. In Liv's mod, Demons summon Demons. I'm OK with that. It creates a challenge. However, I've had the Balor summon 4 Glabreezu in the middle of my party, or six Vrocks. That may not be cheating, but it's bad modding.
I won't condone it, because it can make the game impossibly difficult (and therefore pointless to play: particularly when you remember Liv did not believe in the lvl uncapper and stayed at lvl 10). However, on a tangential topic that people can ignore if they wish to stay on target, I gotta say I have often though if I was a demon and was about to get killed, I would gate in every damn family member, friend and casual acquaintance I could think of. Even if I went down the demon pecking order because of it.
That's fine and in character and all, but in the end this is still a game. When you build a Mod/design an adventure, you have to ask yourself if it's possible to defeat the challenge you add, and if it will be fun to do so. If the answer is "sure, but they'll need to reload until they get lucky / console in an uber item", then you as a GM / Modder are building a mod that I at least don't want to play. I think Liv was absolutely right to let Demons gate in Demons; it's as per the rules, and a good idea. There's just a difference between one Glabreezu and a few other monsters and multiple Glabreezu in the middle of the party. One more boss-class monster is a cool challenge; multiple boss class monsters are either munchkin as hell or the result of a bad script.
I recently played a game with just the "offical" patches like I never seen the game before. I printed the map of Hommlett and went to every house and checked out the dialogue. The only npc I used was Elmo and the game played okay. I was well into temple level 2 when I gave it up. No console usage or nothing. For a new player with no forewarning or knowledge the game is challenging. I did the Fruella marriage quest just to see what happened. I've used Zert, Spugnoir and Furnok. There is nothing to indicate that you can marry Meleny and get a Holysword. Without some prior knowledge(walkthru,etc), you can miss a lot of stuff. The mods by Co8 and others really made this game. I think a lot of people gave up because the game can get very tedious and boring and the bugs. I see a lot of new names in the posts and they are people who have came back. It certainlly appears the modders efforts have been very successful. This game should be in the trash bin of failed games but now it's an interesting, enjoyable game. So for the modders, I say great work people. Keep on modding.
