So, TemplePlus exists.

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Endarire, Feb 29, 2016.

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  1. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    Hi, just wanted to update that the release is delayed. Busy month...
    I'm still playtesting before release, mainly because a lot of under the hood stuff got replaced. Already caught and fixed a couple of bugs while doing that.
     
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  2. florian1

    florian1 Established Member Supporter

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    A minor rules problem. A Bard who has Tasha's Hideous Laughter as a level 1 spell cannot scribe a scroll for it until the Bard is level 3.
     
  3. StrontiumDog

    StrontiumDog Established Member

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    1 obvious question:- Would it all be balanced, ecl-wise, if I simply raised a drow pc to 3rd at the beginning(ecl +2?), or would that not be enough to effectively remove the penalty? To 4th level for deep gnomes( ecl+3?) and so on. Adding an extra feat I can do via TCE anyway at the start - the way I figure it, humans have no stat penalties and huge amounts of skill points, so these adjustments are needed.
     
  4. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    I have to say, a Drow does have a few advantages at level 1 that a human does not.

    Here's a few things that add up to make the cr adjustment slightly more legit:
    • +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. A drow who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
     
  5. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    Honestly, I don't think those things are worth lagging 2-3 levels behind at the end of the moathouse, or even 1 level for that matter. Maybe if the early game were heavier on casters...
     
  6. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    I agree SA.
     
  7. Thorsson

    Thorsson Established Member

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    Do the Drow not have their Stat bonuses then?
     
  8. erkper

    erkper Bugbear Monk Supporter

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    Yeah, I see both sides of this argument, but I tend to end up agreeing that the ecl adjustment is fair. All races have some sort of inherent bonus/advantages, and the drow's spell like abilities and SR are much stronger than any of the base races in ToEE. It's not really the rules' fault that ToEE doesn't have more spell-casting foes in the early game, is it?
     
  9. Thorsson

    Thorsson Established Member

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    Drow get 3 Stat bonuses v 1 malus. The Int Bonus makes up for the loss of skill points, plus it gives an increase to certain skills and additional spells if you're a Wizard. The Cha bonus has lots of possible pluses as does the Dex. Sure, you have less HP, but this is what you have to weigh up. A net +4 to Stats would cost you 4 Epic Feats.

    How does the XP apportionment work? I believe that Drow will pick up bonuses when they are at level 1 and others are at level 2, meaning they are not really a full 2 levels behind.

    It's not just that ToEE is melee heavy, it's also the case that ECL is generally not worth it at low levels.
     
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  10. StrontiumDog

    StrontiumDog Established Member

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    No one has really answered my original question, which was whether a drow could negate all(or most) xp ecl-related penalties if they started at 3rd level, given the usual +2 ECL penalty for drow - anyone please feel free to contribute re this - thanks! Personally, given the vast skill bonuses that humans get and no stat penalty, plus the many bizarre irrelevant immunities(such as the immunity to sleep etc.) , at the very least, there should be no ecl penalties and that nonhuman pcs get that extra human feat as well.
     
  11. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    I guess no one understands your question. How would you start from level 3? By console/DM edit? Why would it negate the ECL? In what sense?
     
  12. Thorsson

    Thorsson Established Member

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    I feel I need to point out again that Humans do not get "vast skill bonuses". They get a bonus as if their Intelligence was 2 points higher - which oddly enough makes them directly comparable to Drow regarding Skills.
     
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  13. florian1

    florian1 Established Member Supporter

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    The problem I see with starting a Drow PC at 3rd level is that while it would erase the ECL penalty, at the same time it would award them with two extra class levels of benefits, including hit points, BAB, saves, class abilities, and feats. If that's the way you want to go, I would think starting them at level two might make more sense, given that they will gain HP, BAB, saves, and some class abilities.

    Since TOEE is a single player computer game, it is of course up to each player how they wish to play the game, and how much they want to use the console, or other modding, to have the game play the way they want. Do it any way you like, and it's no one's place to criticize.

    ECL is a standard part of D&D 3.5. To try to negate ECL is playing the game differently than it is intended to by the designers. Basically, whatever you do differently than the rules say, is simply a "house" rule of your own devising. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I can see.
     
  14. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    I also personally think a house rules mod of drow etc makes a lot of sense. Feel free to edit the definition file and post it.
     
  15. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    Is there a way to perhaps (assuming it doesn't already work this way) assign a negative XP total to the Drow PC's? IIRC, level 1 is 1000 XP, level 2 is 3000 XP, so starting Drow at -2000 XP would mean Drow must gain 2 levels worth of experience without advancing an actual class level. That is how the ECL penalty is meant to work, right?

    Or are they meant to start at 3000 XP but without the ability to level up twice?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
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