what is right, is right: work it as you want

I need a bit of time to think about the latest news.
I want to explain the reasons that moved me to leave and I would happy to rejoin even because at the beginning I realized my mod to be used and DEVELOPED by Co8 community. I want to find the most appropriate words to explain everything, so give me a couple of days. Thanks.

 

AS: sorry if this is gonna be a long post but, imho due to the importance of
contnents, I've not been able to make it shorter.

Guys,

I know that you did not dismiss me and it is me ho left Co8, but please, try
being in my shoes at least for one second: have you any idea about how
frustrating it has been for me to offer my contribute (made at the price of
days of costant work in front of my PC) and to see it rejected everytime?

Emotions may blur memories but, without any wish to reproach any of you, I
remember that I never seen my work judjed as a wholeness. Attention has been
usually focused on details with no or few positive comments on the rest of
my work and I can't remember any effort to reach a compromise between my
tastes and yours. And I'm not talking about adding a ranger here or there:
the Bertram matter was only for a role-playing reason that had only a
relative importance and I know my tendency to get flamed by discussion.

I always liked Livonya's philosophy: "I work for myself first, then for the
comunity" and dismissing all of my ideas in name of somebody else's taste in
a community where we are supposed to be all equals made me feel like a slave
and not like a member.
I'm human as well and I want you to understand that I felt so bad
that I found leaving the community as only solution.

And, please, consider one more thing: you are talking about Co8 relase only
as your relase and as Orion's fixes as a product that includes Co8 relases
plus my work. I humbly remind you that I have been part of Co8 too and I
helped the community with constant feedback, reasoning together with you all
and with my stubbornness, useful more than once. Do you remember the long
debate between me and Livonya about monsters' constitution bonus and HP? It
is me who asked Drifter to create the hack for temple.dll and who did all
the tests for him, understanding what the problem was. And, without being
arrogant, I don't think that you would have discovered all the errors made
by Troika's when they created the protos.tab without all my experiments and
failures. Pheraps you would still be fighting against a Lamiah with a +24
bonus on will. I write this not to have honors I don't seek but only to
remind you that our works are still linked somehow and that there is a bit
of myne in Co8 4.0, as small as it may be.

About the solution, I want you to note this:

- I only care about players that want to play my mod: then if my
module is splitted from Co8, it is not of my interest as long as Co8 grants
a bridge of compatibility between Atari patch 2 and my module, even if I
think that this is a too big effort for this matter since we are still
talking about a videogame and about a freeware patch.

- If it is a matter of quality and Co8 reputation, you have to know that my
mod works fine at least with my version of the game and I always reached
positive feedback from satisfied players. It looks like that some "bugs" are
related to the game version: I myself played the game 3 other times testing
all possible game options and I don't find bugs anymore.

Also, when I wrote in my readme that "disintegrate" does nothing, it is not
to throw mud on Darmagon or Co8 in general but only because it effectively
does nothing in my game! As well, there were some errors into the new
strings related to the herbmonger's celtic tattoos and the new girl in the
laborers' field made my game CTD everytime that I approached her (starting a
new game with a clean map folder didn't solve the problem). For sure the
game works fine with USA/UK version but not with mine so I just have had to
change things to play the game and, of course, the first thought was that it
was a bug, not a compatibility issue.

So, at the end, those are some ideas that may solve the problem:

1 - Co8 forgives me for not asking permission for using 3.0.4, you accept my
pubblic and official apologies. There will be written on Sorcerer's place
that it is NOT a Co8 relase and we make together the readme file so prevent
all missing informations. More, I already made all the changes that Co8 requested me, like removing the useless files from the RAR archive.
The advantage is that there is only one file about
which I take the whole responsability, Co8's reputation is safe, Co8 doesn't
need to store an extra file for compatibility, Co8 saves useful free space
and it is an easier installation for the player.

2 - As above, but I put the setup program for 3.0.4 or any other file of
your choice and my module in two separate folders of the RAR archive so that
every player will know what comes from Co8 and what from my module. Again,
we should be all happy: you have your stuff that is clearly under Co8 name,
I'm happy because I may easily deal with new relases if there will be the
need of them dealing directly with sorcerer's place and mainly, the winner
is the player that will not go mad due to the research of several files on
the web and the compatibility of my add-on with your relase is granted
forever.

3 - I effectively split the files of my module from 3.0.4 and it will become
an add-on to Co8's as proposed above, but you should have to grant
compatibility with Atari patch 2 forever; you will allow me to choose
which files to include in the archive (I won't abuse of this) and to send to
every player that will experience problems of any kind the 1.10 version of
my game as it is now, version that won't be uploaded anymore on Sorcerer's
Place. As you see, it is more uncomfortable for everybody.

I still belive that solution 1 or 2 are the best and that solution 2 is a great compromise but, if you really believe that solution 3 is the best one, regardless of the feelings that some of you have toward me, then let it be so.

There is even a 4th solution, but it's perhaps a problematic one. I would
glady rejoin the Co8 and would welcome a fusion between my MOD and Co8's but
I'm afraid that the changes are now too many and too big. That's because I
did a HUGE (and I mean really HUGE) work for game rebalancement for every
monster (both restoring every original attribute from the monster handbook
and both empowering monsters that just had no chanche to overcome the
average party armor class with their first attack), so that every monster
could offer the perfect challenge in every moment of the game. Challenge
that now is calculated on a full party that goes from 1st to aproximatively
15th level and a 10-level party with the cap-limit would have no hope to
defeat nor Iuz or the other archmonsters.

More, in order to make the files smaller and to have less confusion when
modding, I replaced and removed Co8 contents from several files and folders,
not to talk about the changes made with the mob files. A merger would really
take a lot of time because it would mean to re-implement a lot of missing
Co8 contents that I removed, to re-assign a new working IDs to items placed
on the same lines in the protos.tab and related files and to check every
single mob file in the maps folder to grant compatibility with the new
protos.tab. More, there would be the need to check the name of every new
file, like dialogues or scripts, that has a number in the name that is used
in the protos.tab.

For example, let's say that I created a new script named 410fighter (that
automatically makes every monster with that script to wear a full plate
armor when the fight begins, so that the AI will no longer cheat with
monsters' natural armor class to compensate the lack of a real armor), and
let's say that Co8 created another script that is named 410xxx that is used
by another monster or NPC. The files won't override each other even if in
the same folder because the name is different but the number is the same and
it would mess up the protos.tab. Then, it would be another hard work to
check every single file to grant compatibility. Not to name the huge number
of small touch-ups that I made here and there and the care for details that
characterize my module or the fact that I recicled some files, like some
portraits or dialogues keeping unchanged the name but completely changing
itheir contents.

If you want, it may be a good compromise for me if you insert my mod as an
option, like "Desperate Housewifes", and you use the new spells, the new
portraits or items or take some of my changes & fixes that I applied in your
main relase as long as my name is in the credits.
But adding, for example, the new fight with Hedrack's
bodyguards, the new Zuggtmoy fight with the "gate" and "summon fungi" spells
fixed, the new node guardians or the dragon & hydras meeting in the water
node (just to name some new features) may drive to unexpected results
without the appropriate supervision, that I can't offer at the moment due to
lack of time.

More, many of my changes are essential to the game and I consider them
worthy, both because I worked hard on them for weeks and both because they
are just useful and the game runs better now but I already know that you
will not agree about some of them.

We may split them in 2 categories:

1 - Objective changes
2 - Subjective changes.

The fact that my balor now fights with a longsword and a flamming whip like
the original one or that all celestial/fiendish creatures have their
external attributes restored or that I fixed, according to the monster
manual, all the DC of monsters' spells/spell-like abilities are samples of
fixes/changes that I'm sure that everybody would like.

The fact that I empowered the node guardians, that I changed the tower
shields (including Co8 Curved heater, making them like large shiled with
protection from arrows, since they were outpowered without the -2 to attack
roll), the new weapons that I added into the new spell-warded werewolves
chest (that may be unlocked only near the end of the game and that offer the
proper equipment for a high-level party) and a huge numbers of changes that
simply are, from my point of view, essential for the game are subjective and
I know that many of you won't agree with them.

But the point is that Co8 is not a mirror of the whole world of ToEE
players, even if I'm the minority here it does not mean that I represent the
minority of players and for my education and mentality, I simply cannot
accept as answer "Orion, don't do it because I just don't like it" as it
happened before: I know that I need more concrete answers together with
reasoned alternatives to reach a common point so that I may change my
opinion about my own work and know that it would drive to other flamming
threads that I don't want.

So, considering all this, do you still think that a fusion is possible?

Is there any hope that you could reconsider your request of the add-on and
that you forgive a passionable latin that simply has the fault of loving too
much this game and that hasn't been able to propely comunicate with Co8,
accepting maybe solution 2?

 

We do, and did remember this 0rion. If you look you will see that we gave you credit for this in the release notes for 4.0.0, along with listing you in the modder's section. We give credit where it is due.

Understand that there will always be some people who disagree with some aspects of every mod. I have had a few for every small thing I have done. Liv had a huge number of people giving her flack for the upped DCs on chests, traps and social skills. We still hear about that even though she is long gone. And don't forget the "Cure Amii" quest. You yourself had a lot to say in disagreement to that. But no one here ever condemned your whole mod. Many of us, even though we disagreed with many small points, maintained that there was a lot of good stuff in it too. I was one of those. In all fairness, you did not stick around long enough to have your mod judged in it's "wholeness". You left before anybody had a chance to even play it. We still hosted it, even though many of us disagreed with some parts of it. And not because you demanded we do it, but because you were a member of Co8.

It is possible that the bugs we have found in your latest release are because of different versions of the game. Either way, we are willing to work with you to fix them. Keep in mind as well that you left before the bugs were worked out of ShiningTed's mod, so of course there were some problems. It is obvious that you have been using the early version of his mod, since you are using the first version of my Random Random Encounter patch in your mod.

If you do decide to come back, I don't think we are talking about a complete fusion of you mod and the official Co8 mod. I am sure that many of you ideas will make it into future Co8 releases, and we would love you objective input, but for the immediate future we are talking about having your mod hosted at Co8 as a Co8 member's mod, just like Liv's and Ted's mod were at first, and, until this recent unpleasantness started, the original version of your mod was. Like I said, over time it may get integrated into an official Co8 release, but not right away.

That being said, if you do not decide to come back, I think option 3 is what the community has decided upon. We will supply a base Co8 install for your mod that can be downloaded from Co8, and we will host it in perpetuity for as long as you want. As far as you deciding what files will be in there, well, you will have input, but if individual modders don't want there stuff in there, we cannot force them too. Likewise, we will not put anything in there that you do not need for your mod, other than release notes that give credit to the Co8 members for their work.

You keep saying that this will take too much time. With the trial version of Beyond Compare it shouldn't take more than an hour to compare your mod with the base Co8 install to find all the files that you have changed. It will take me longer than that to make the readme for the base Co8 install. But I will do it if you will do your part. We have already started putting together the base Co8 install. We don't think it is too much work.

 

In the interest of keeping the peace and dismantling difficulties, here is what I was able to determine.

1. I took a copy of your Orion's Addons, your "Final" version in its RAR package and extracted those files.
* You had your files in separate folders, so I had to properly arrange the folders (non-toeefe configured folders).
** Plus, for whatever reason, you had the ToEE.exe file renamed as ToEE-console.exe of which I removed from the files being considered (deleted it).

2. Here's my new ToEE install information.
2a. I did a non-toeefe, typical new install of ToEE.
2b. I patched it with both the Atari Patch1 and the Patch2 updates.
2c. I ran the Co8 3.0.4 MOD setup installer.
2d. I ran the Livonya's 1.5.1 Beta MOD setup installer.
2e. I extracted a non-toeefe full version of ShiningTed's 1.2.0 MOD with Allyx's Shop and Cujo's Items to the new game folder.
2f. I extracted a non-toeefe version of the December 2005 release of ShiningTed's Voices to the new game folder.

3. I copied the entire new ToEE installed game files and folders to a new temp folder (as listed above).

4. I copied the extracted files from Orion's Final folder to the new ToEE install game folder.
* overwrite - yes to all

5. I ran an app and determined what files are the changed or newer version of files. I copied the changed (newer) version of the files to another new temp folder and zipped them all in to one zip file.

6. Here is the zip file containing the distinct changed (newer) files for your download and review.
http://www.savefile.com/files/9177595

[EDIT] Using the same compression utility on my part and using the maximum compression, the zip file was reduced in size from 11,162 KB to 5,322 KB.

[EDIT] And yes, I already put together a complete Co8 installer package for all of what Co8 files are listed in STEP 2c/2d/2e/2f [if you are interested]. And no, I was not asked to do this, I did it all on my own accord in an attempt to be helpful if it would be needed.

 

There are only two choices:

1. Work with Co8
2. Work on your own

It is that simple.

Really, the choices never have changed. It is up to you.

 

Very good work, Krunch! I do say (to Orion), come back in here! It's undeniable that both parties would get benefit from this. Co8's being very accomodating and Orion's support, although limited, has been important for the community too.

 

Very well, buddies. I'm back and I agree with Cerulean the blue option.

"We do, and did remember this 0rion. If you look you will see that we gave you credit for this in the release notes for 4.0.0, along with listing you in the modder's section. We give credit where it is due."

I didn't know it. Thank you for your fairness.

"[...] having your mod hosted at Co8 as a Co8 member's mod, [...] Like I said, over time it may get integrated into an official Co8 release, but not right away."

Ok, I agree with this solution. I'm gonna to look at Krunch work for the best optimization of the files and I'll try to be inside the comunity as much as I can but please remember that in the very next months I'll be busy with my thesis and with a master of communications in Milan (I live in Cagliari), so often I will not have access to Co8 pages.

But before we procede, am I entitled to promote my module on Sorcerer's place with a link to my file stored on Co8 site?

If so, what do you want me to write in the readme?

Did you discoverd more bugs than the ones described by my fans in their feedback?
Allyx made me to note that there was a small bug into Loralei's dialogue that was very hard to discover for a player that never played the game before.

More, this is a list of the things that are both bugs that I discovered (and for sure you already know some of them) or things that I have not been to develop: may you somehow help me with this?

- Elemental burns weapon. Shocking burst deals cold damage while cold burst deal negative energy damage. This is true both for prototypes in the protos.tab and for items crafted in the game by spellcasters.
- A druid that shapeshifts into any animal BEFORE entering combat, will move by 5 feet only. Shapeshift only after the fight begins and morph back to human when it ends.
- It is impossible to add entries to the radial menu for new items with spell-like abilities. For example, the Golden Axe casts effectively 3 kinds of spells +1 (see below), but they both have the name "golden axe" instead of lightning bolt, call lightning storm and chain lightning. The CD of those spells is granted by user's intelligence, charisma or wisdom like if they were spells casted usually by a wizard.
- For some unknown reason, ToEE makes weapons with more than 1 spell-like ability to loose the first spell upon map change or when enchanting with attributes like Keen, Flamming or Axiomatic. To avoid this, I added "virtue" to every weapon so that it will be the only spell to be sacrified. Now they look all working but, if something goes bad, use the console command:

give ####

to respawn the wished item into the selected NPC/PC's inventory. You may get the IDs from the Description.mes file.
- It is impossible, for me, to set the favored enemy level. In othe words, Otis, that is the only high-level ranger in the game, deals only 2 extra damge to his favored enemies instead than the 6 that he should.
- there is no way for me to create a decent script about when a creature should try to trip another one or not. All kind of wolves are supposed to have a super-improved trip attack where, if they fail to trip foes, there is no risk of being counter-tripped by the opponent. Sadly, adding the variable "monster untripable" does nothing and there is no way from the strategy.tab to have wolves to trip only once or to have them to try to trip only foes of their same size or smaller.
- The new Iuz fight: I created a new script for Iuz's Avatar, for a better use of his clerical abilities and an harder fight. Still, the game is not created to handle Gods and epic-level characters so, when Iuz is holding his original greatsword and casts all of his offesnive spells, he will strike more than 4 times per round and this makes him a deadly foe. You may choose to fight him in this way or to replace his py00172iuz.py file with the one contained in the Extra folder of the archive to have him fight with bare hands only (2 slams).
- hardcoded monsters: Some monsters are hardcoded into mob files that prevent the changes from the protos.tab to take effect. That is why I wasn't able to change some of the monsters' qualities like galeb dur's crazy damage reduction. Replacing the original mob files with new files that have the same ID caused weird monsters reactions that prevent any further modding.
Still, the changes in the protos tab are effective about summoned creatures or random encounters.
- Now casting a spell Summon Nature's Ally V will show the writing "summon Elder XXX elemental" in the radial menu even if the summoned elemental is still a large one.
- "Disintegrate", a special note about. For some unknown reason, the spell does nothing with my version of the game. It looks like that adding a saving throw to a ray makes the spell null. I have no idea why Co8 spell works with their versions of the game and not with my one, that is the italian one, but still I have been forced to change the spell to make it working with my version of the game. Now it targets foes more like an "inflict critical wounds" and does not kill enemies if their HPs go between 0 and -9.
- Many spells are not exactly like the 3.5 ones because many variables are hardcoded and because the game won't "see" some variables even if the script looks fine to me. More, modifying the radial menù screwed up the game. So don't complain too much if the monsters summoned with the new summon spells are hardcoded or if Sunray deals only 1/4 damage to humanoids or noone with sucesful saving throw, instead than 4d6 or half because the the result is the same at 90%. More, I have been forced to alter the name of some spells because keeping the original one made the radial menù empty or caused the game to quit to desktop.
- When a PC/NPC does try to hit an opponent with a ranged touch attack, the game includes bonuses to natural armor (barkskin, amulet of natural armor) even if it should not. Base natural armor is not included.
- Looting the Balor guardian. When he dies, his possessions are still inside his body that is 100% trasparent so, in order to loot the gems and his weapons, you must have your party to rest and wait that the body phisically disappear from the game.
- game slowdown: in the elemental nodes, especially in the fire and earth one, you will experience severe slowdown caused by many hidden monsters that will catch by surprice your party. If the game freeze it is a matter of time before that the game begins to run as before. To reduce the problems, do not scroll the game map while your party is moving and use the arrows on your keyboard instead than the mouse.
- Iuz, as all the monsters with proper spellcaster levels, does not use the new spells because I don't know how to insert them in the strategy.tab. Every addition was understood as an empty cell.
- Tower shield: since there is no proficiency feat for them and there is no way to have them to include their -2 penality to hit, they were working like overpowered +2 large shields. Now they works like encumbering large shields that allow the user to cast protection from arrows like a sorcerer, at will. This is to simulate the fact that they may be used as mobile walls in battle. This should rebalance that category of Shields.
- Hezrou's stench was impossible to fix and, since he affected himself and other creatures that should have immunity to the stench and it was too different from the original one, it has been replaced with "Slow" untill a better solution is found.
- Darley casts only Suggestion because the ToEE engine makes every spellcaster to cast in sequence every available spell with that name except the healing spells. In other words, if the strategy is set up with "stoneskin" as first spell to cast, Darley will cast stoneskin on self untill she doesn't have anymore spells of 4th level. The same with everyother
available spell.
- Wizards cast haste only on one single target because I have not been able to find any command (assuming that there is one, thing that is not granted) to have them to influence their own party all at once. Selecting "cast area" was useless.
- Some monsters have other scripts that prevented me from assigning them shields and armor. So don't be surprised if some monsters have a greater natural AC than normal. it is to compensate the lack of an armor. Some monsters instead got a better natural AC than usual because they "spent" one feat while increasing by size or level to improve their natural armor (1 per feat spent in this way).
- Some monsters have a greater intellingence or wisdom of what they should because it was used to re-calculate the DC for spells. Others instead have class levels even if they shouldn't. Even if so, don't worry because all other values have been re-calculated accordingly, so that the total is as closed as possible to core rules.
- As well, some monsters have more feats of what they should. Many of them use the same prototype but are equiped with different weapons and armors. Since it was really hard to change the monsters already placed here and there in the maps, it was easier to assign them several "weapon focus" & similar feats to the same prototype instead than going to change every single model in the game. At the end, the final result is the same.
- Murphles/Hruda does not level up as a PC except if you level her up with the console. The reason is still unknown.
- Werewolves have higher stats of what they should because it was impossible for me to create a script like the one for the spellcasters in the temple tower. Since they can look what's going on through the mirror, it was
nonsense that they didn't cast their spells before the battle so the new
stats includes cat's grace and barkskin. The backdraw of this is that spells cannot be disppelled. More, increasing the natural armor to simulate an armor was a too severe cheating for the following reasons: normal armors
are broken from shapeshifting, it was unfair to equip them with magic armors that the party can't loot, increasing natural armor to simulate a real armor implies changes to skill cheks, movement and spell-related matters.

 

Welcome back onboard, Orion!

I am personally extremely satisfied with your decision. It's been wise. And I am happy that the community dealt with this delicate matter with maturity and responsability (thanks again to Cerulean).

But perhaps Orion, you should move the second half of your post in the General Modifications section since it belongs there more than here!

You are back to discuss technical stuff, you see (and I am just very happy because of this)...

 

HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE'S BAAAAAAAAAAACK.............


Darmagon

 

Ok, thanks. But the question is: how do I upload the file? Do you want anything specific written in the read-me file? Any bugs that I should klnow that escaped players' playtesting?Thanks.

PS: About loralei, at the beginning, it made the game to QTD in my game as well, but I re-made everything and now she uses jaroo's chest ( it is more cute to see where she takes all the items ) witout QTD, with scripts in her dialogue strings fixed. Hope that it is the same in USA version now.

 

IMO - As far as comments in a readme file is concerned, the following would be good. Can anyone think of more that needs to be added?


****************************************
Recognition and thanks to these people who MOD and promote ToEE through the gamer community at the Circle of Eight web site, http://www.co8.org.

- Moebius2778 (Co8 website) for the "temple.dll"

- Livonya (Co8 website) for the "Livonya's Beta 1.5.1 MOD"

- the Circle of Eight site, its modders and testers, for the "Co8 Fan Fixes 1 MODs", the "Co8 Fan Fixes 2 MODs", and the "Co8 Fan Fixes 3.0.4 MOD"

- Drifter for the "MaxHPs" and the "HumblePCs" patches

- Dulcaoin for the "PC Count Patcher"

- ShiningTed for the "Desperate Housewives Quest"
- ShiningTed for the "Something about Mary" and the "Playful NPCs"
- ShiningTed for the "Gwenno" and "Ah Fong" addons

- Allyx for the "Shops" as well as testing, fixes, and updates

- Cujo for all of the artwork and mods for clothes, armor, items, and weapons as well as testing

- Cerulean the Blue for the "Random Encounters" and the updates to "Little Amii's Cure"
- Cerulean the Blue for his testing and fixes

=>> BIG thanks to a long list of modders...Agetian, Aginor37, Allyx, Auldar, Ausir, Beaujim, Bob the Elf, bradrinwi, Brokenblade, Cerulean the Blue, Chrisbeddoes, Chris Woods, Cujo, daetar, Dan, Darkstorm, darmagon, Dhoom, Drifter, duggelz, dulcaoin, Endarire, Firestrand, FredSRichardson, Glamis, Goongyae, Heavydan85, Huntsman, indio, JHunz, Jota, Joviex, Kentamanos, Keolander, Kharmakazy, Kobayashi, Livonya, Lord Corwin, moebius2778, Moosehead, Morpheus, Mr. Underhill, Mynex, Nomad_Wanderer, Olbaid, Orion, Pebz, Phalzyr, PlatinumWeaver, Raaagh, rex_blade, RufusAtticus, Sapricon (Agetian's assistant), screeg, Shiftyjim, Shin, Shiningted, sir_toejam, Sol Invictus, spOOL, tkurgan, Toshi, Vaevictis666, Xma, Zane, zhuge

=>> and thanks to the Special Thanks Gang...Bryce777, Edwin P, Gaear, Kalshane, krunch, lord_graywolfe, Lord Plothos, Lord_Spike, Old Book, ordinaryjones, Taluntain
****************************************