what is right, is right: work it as you want

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 0rion79, Feb 9, 2006.

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  1. 0rion79

    0rion79 Established Member

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    Since Urban F. asked me to do so and since I effectively have absolutely no problems in writing things as they are, I await your approval for the ReadMe of my module. I already applied the other changes that Urban F. described to me and that Co8 required.
    This is what I wrote. If you think that there are errors or that something is missing or that something is unfair/unrespectful/wrong and so on, just write it down and it will be done. Please, let's do this thing together quickly.

    ************* credits and notes about Circle of 8 ******************* (now at the top of the module)

    This module is the result of my personal ideas and work using "Circle of 8" 3.0.4 fix as basis for it. As well, almost all of the changes have been possible thanks to the tools offered by Co8 (Protos Editor and ToEE World Builder). I have to thanks all Co8 members for their help and contribution untill the dismissal.
    This module includes small parts from Co8 last relase in date 05/08/2005 too.
    In details: Livonya's 1.51 Mod, moebius2778's temple.dll, Cujo's new armor/clothes, Cerulean the Blue's Random Encounter maps, darmagon's new spells and the celtic tattoos from Herbmonger in Nulb. Allyx new items has been almost all replaced with extra equipment and the trader Ah-Fong has been removed and replaced by another one into a different location but still Allyx ad ShiningTed gave an important contribution to this module and the right inspiration to me for some contnents. Other contnents from 4.0 like Desperate Housewives MOD are NOT included. If something is missing, use the Co8 forum as remark and use the readme n° 3 to have a complete list of Co8 fixes from 3.0.4 included in this module.
    Due to heavy differences between the Co8 and me about how to fix and mod ToEE, I've been forced to create this module by myself using players' feedback. Even if without Co8 this module could not exist, since the changes are now so many and since I realized alone everything that is listesd into this ile and into the readme2 file, this module cannot be considered a Co8 relase anymore nor they have any responsability in it so contact me for any comment, suggestion, feedback or everyother matter.
    As author, my will is that this module may be used from Co8 or other modders only with my supervision and authorization and only for a no-profit distribtuion and my name must be always listed together with the contributors of the game. As well, it is not allowed the use of single parts of this module without my authorization, since the risk to break te delicate equilibrium behind the game rebalancement is too high, but it must be included into new relases into its wholeness. In other words, extra encounters, spells, scripts, fixes and so on may be partially included or reproduced into other mods only with all the other parts of this module.
    As a personal note, the reason for which I left the Circle of Eight is that I can't agree with modders that want to change the game with additions that are, in my very personal and humble opinion, completely out of the plot and out of the original game spirit, D&D 3.5, AD&D ToEE and, generally, with the concept of role playing so different from my one.


    - "Disintegrate", a special note about. For some unknown reason, the spell does nothing with my version of the game. It looks like that adding a saving throw to a ray makes the spell null. I have no idea why Co8's spell works with their versions of the game and not with my one, that is the italian one, but still I have been forced to change the spell to make it working with my version of the game. Now it targets foes more like an "inflict critical wounds".
     
  2. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

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    ATTENTION FELLOW Co8 MEMBERS.

    PLEASE DO NOT SPAM OR FLAME THIS THREAD!!!!


    Sorry about having to say that. It's not that I think any of you would, it's just that we want to keep this as civil as possible.


    0rion,

    First I must point out that I have not been elected as the representative of this community, so this post may or may not reflect the feelings of the community at large.

    I want to thank you for posting this here and trying to resolve this issue. I know you and Co8 did not part on the best of terms, and that there are certain personality conflicts and "artistic differences" between you and the other members of this community. This is not about resuming these old conflicts, however. This is about resolving the issue at hand, which is your use of Co8 work in your mod.

    This community also wishes to resolve this matter as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, you are dealing with a community, which means that many different people must be consulted before any decision can be reached. This may take some time.

    I do not know if you have been following the discussion here about your mod, but things have changed. The general opinion right now seems to be that the community wishes to have the Co8 work, and the Co8 name, completely disassociated with your mod. What this means is that the end users would have to download and install the Co8 mod, and then download and install your changes over the top of it. This way your work and the work of Co8 will remain completely separate: Co8 members will be insured proper credit for all there work in the documentation for the Co8 mod, and you will be able to clearly indicate all the changes and additions that you have made in your own documentation, along with a short note that Co8 does not provide support for you work.

    At first this might seem like a lot more labor than just changing the readme, but I would point out that I spent three months working on nothing but the release notes for Co8 4.0.0, and that most of that time was spent researching and documenting the older Co8 work which you are using in your mod. I am sure that nothing less than equal research and documentation would satisfy the members of this community, so in the end restructuring you mod to install over a Co8 release may well prove to be less time consuming.

    I realize this change in direction may come as a bit of a shock, especially if you have not been following the discussion here. We do feel, however, that this is the best solution to this issue for all parties involved, especially seeing how you appear to want to separate yourself from the Co8 community.

    Once again, I wish to thank you for coming here to resolve this, and I hope we can do so quickly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2006
  3. 0rion79

    0rion79 Established Member

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    guys, please, give me a break, show pity: I really don't have time to split my work and I must say that I disagree only for one reason: what if you will change something and my module looses the compatibility with Co8 stuff? I didn't change the protos tab only, but applied other changes to game variabiles, scripts and so on. I didn't keep track of my work and it would take too much time both for you and for me to ensure compatibility.
    More, now my module is at its final version, i'm gonna to upload it on Sorcerer's place and I will only offer a free support to fans that mind to play it. Nothing else.
    Is it really worthy of such an effort when everything may be sloved writing whatever you want in the readme file?
    Please, reconsider.
     
  4. Morpheus

    Morpheus Mindflayer Veteran

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    I agree with CtB. Please keep it civil, folks.

    As CtB stated, the general consensus now seems to be that you should release your fixes as an add-on to the Co8 mod pack, if you intend to use the latter as the base of your work. That way, you don't have to spend hours documenting all the contributions from other modders.

    My suggestion: Use Beyond Compare or a similar file comparison utility to find the files from your mod that are different from the ones in the latest Co8 Mod Pack. Then create a zip package containing only the files you have changed, together with a readme detailing those changes. Ask the users of your mod to download & install official patch 2 and the Co8 Mod Pack before they install your mod.

    There IS one problem: Your mod is based on an older version of the Co8 stuff. The fact that the Mod Pack has evolved in the meantime complicates matters a little bit, because it might be risky to simply apply your changes over Co8 4.0.0 (or the soon-to-be-released Co8 4.1.0). I believe, however, that any possible issues can be easily resolved.

    0rion79: If you need any help, don't hesitate to ask for it.

    I know a lot of anger has been vented recently (and a lot of dirty laundry has been washed in public), but maybe now is the time to put those differences behind us and try to cooperate.
     
  5. 0rion79

    0rion79 Established Member

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    Morpheus, I'm not angry at all with Co8. Instead, I'm thankful because you gave me the tools to make the game as it should have been in my mind and I spent a nice time with you regardless of what happened and it has been really nice for me to feel again part of a virtual community.

    Still, I'm really in doubt about this whole operation only for a compatibility reason.
    Think to the players first: why should they be messed up by 2 installation processes and stressed by compatibility issues if everything may be easily resolved by writing the proper readme file? More, I'm sure that I wrote down everything that Co8 wished, I followed all your instructions and, forgive me if this sentence may look rude or unrespectful even if it is not ment to be, but I'm here because of my feeling of righteouses and not because any international law or copyrights forces me to do so.

    My mod is small (6.3 mb), it is final and it does not bother anybody. More the game is old and there are always less people playing to it. Why do you want to make things more complicated of what they are? Is this really necessary? Can't we just live and let live? After all we did our modules with no-profit purposes, first for ourselves and then for the players that love ToEE and that want to play it at the best. The competition does not exist at all! The only thing that separates us is the concept of what is the best. Of course, I'm here to cooperate but please, tell me first the resons for which you pretend such a big change.
     
  6. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    I will try my best to refrain from flaming right here, right now. However, should something appear flamable I appologise in advance.

    0rion YOU want to divorce yourself from the Co8, fair enough. YOU use Co8 material as the basis of your mod, also fair (but you should have asked first). YOU made changes that will cause bugs, CTD's, and offend the original authors of the Co8 material you changed.
    It is not for YOUR benefit that we propose a 2 stage install, but for ours. Should someone download YOUR mod, believing it to be a Co8 mod with a complete list of "fixes" as advertised by yourself, then go on to experience trouble with your mod they may mistakenly assume the problem lies within the Co8 portion of the mod. With a separate Co8 install, it should become clear that your mod is indeed separate from our mod.

    Work has already begun reguarding the Co8 portion of the "0rion" mod, the compatability issues are (in my opinion) your contribution towards making your mod one that the Co8 can allow.
     
  7. Salk

    Salk Established Member

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    Hello, everybody!

    I come posting here again because I am very interested in the evolution of this subject. First, I want to openly thank Cerulean The Blue for being so open minded and conciliatory. He is an example to follow. Second, I want to thank also Orion because in my first post here I was sort of following his way of reasoning and I was reminded of this by other community members/modders.

    It's then obvious that for me, personally, the very best would be to have Orion reintegrated in the community. He's decided to come back here and probably he realizes that his temper had played him a bad trick but I am humbly asking you to consider his position as non-english speaking modder (I am italian too) that didn't perhaps ever well integrated to Co8 mainly because of communication problems.

    Said that, I am sure that the whole community, as stated by most of the modders here, would benefit of his own ideas and contributions. The patch could be expression of both. I mean...I realize we can't all have the same tastes and this shows when there are several modders working on a single Mod. But that doesn't mean that there is no way to have different ideas represented in the final version of the Mod.

    The path to follow was to make some things optional and keep others as core enhancements.

    I would love to enjoy some enhancements (not all) that the Co8 patch has brough forward and is going to add in the future as well Orion's ideas.

    The best, in my opinion, is to try and have the same attitude that Cerulean has. By doing that, I am positive every obstacle will be surmonted.

    I humbly ask you all guys to be part of this and give your own opinions keeping clearly in mind that we all want to have fun playing Temple of Elemental Evil.

    Thank you so much!
     
  8. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    Following my earlier post I was contacted by 0rion79 through the AIM messenger, while the whole transcript is rather large (and contains some flamage from both myself and 0rion79), It may just contain the ray of sunshine that is needed to end this whole debate, and bring peace and good times for all involved. Here is what was said (among other things)...

    Allyx: What I suggested to krunch was that we could produce a Co8 mod built from 3.0.4, liv's mod, and teds mod (as you used each of these for the basis of your mod), then your mod only needs to contain the new stuff you added.
    0rion79: but it would still be dependant from Co8!
    0rion79: if you want to keep your reputation safe, isn't better to drop the idea of the add-on?

    Allyx: I don't think so, because your mod still uses Co8 intelectual property. To truely divorce yourself from the Co8, we are willing to supply a base for your mod to stand on, which will remain the same forever. Your mod will go on top of it and be completely separate from the Co8 and your responsibility to maintain.
    0rion79: look a good compromise
    0rion79: but we'll discuss it together on the forum, ok?

    Allyx: Ok. Compromise is good, our demands aren't much, and if we can all be happy, then that's good too.
    0rion79: yes.-

    How does that sound people?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2006
  9. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    0rion: an easy out for you: Krunch has recently put together a pack of Co8 stuff specifically designed for you to run your stuff off (ie an initial install you can add your specific changes to). Why not download it, compare it to yours: every file with a different date stamp can go in yours, and that's that. Shouldn't take more than an hour. No one is going to get anal about this if you miss a file here or there, you've made an honourable approach and if you do this in good faith, its all good.

    Unfortunately a 'Co8+0rion' mod as a whole pack is NOT an option: there are people here who do not want their efforts disseminated independantly of Co8. I'm not one of them, but my fellow Co8ers who feel that way have my complete support.

    EDIT: Simultaneous post with Allyx above. I think we're saying the same thing (but I gave an easy way to implement it). Well done Allyx, good idea :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2006
  10. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Reading through all this, I see three workable options here.

    1. Orion separates his material from Co8 material and provides a download link for Co8 4.X.X as the basis for his mod.

    2. Orion uses Ted/Allyx/Krunch's solution of the custom Co8 pack for his mod.

    3. Orion returns to Co8. Orion, no one ever threw you out. The simplest way to reconcile this mess would be to return to the modding crew here. However, you would have to understand that all modding decisions regarding the official Co8 packages are decided upon by the community, not any one individual. Hence, you could resume your cooperative efforts with the community as a whole and abide by any decisions the community makes regarding your material and its integration into any official mods, or you could release your own material, as a member of Co8, and not have to go this independant modder route. There are a variety of non-official mods out there done by Co8 members. As long as you made it clear in your readmes what the situation was, I don't think anyone would mind. (Members, please advise if I am wrong about this.) If you were intent on releasing your own material as it is, you could call it 'Orion's Co8 Expansion mod' or something like that, inform users in your readme that it is not an official release, and likely even have it hosted here, not to mention be able to address support issues at these boards.

    That said, understand that there remain a lot of harsh feelings in this community that were essentially caused by the way you left and your subsequent bashing of Co8. I'm not trying to reignite those flames here, but some reconciliation would be in order if you were to elect to resume a position as a Co8 modder.

    If you did return to Co8, all considerations of 'independant mods,' and permissions and locating hosts would most likely become null, a significant boon to you, I would think. But you would have to return in the spirit to which the offer is made, that being that you, like everyone else, are one member of a larger community, and that you enjoy no rights lesser or greater than any other member.

    Is Ted's 'Desperate Housewives' mod et al really so offensive? It seems to me that all these issues really stem from hurt feelings and are thus reconcileable.
     
  11. maalri

    maalri Immortal

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    Bravo to ALL posters! (so far)

    I was afraid this would get ugly, but instead I think every single poster so far has done a great job trying to amicably resolve- and yes go even so far as to say be downright friendly, and I hope my post will be the same.

    1st- SO much Bravo to Orion for coming back to discuss this all, Giant BIG Kudos to C-Blue for leading off with a good message, and good ideas. I am very happy to see Ted and Allyx, probably the most offended? modders of Co8, in this whole mess, keeping a very civil attitude AND being very helpful in working this all out. And even though he hasn't posted yet, Krunch is a very good and giving person to do the work on the sepperation! Way to go all!

    2nd- Salk- welcome (back?). It is good of you to offer two things- first an alternative view from another foreign language person, and fellow (to Orion) Italian, that gives another, non-inflamatory view, and second that view itsself!

    I came after Orion left (or right at the end) and I am glad that Orion and Co8 seem to be working things out!

    OK, my cheerleading is over.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2006
  12. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Tuning in late...

    You left; there was never a dismissal. No one ever said you could not return. That said, I like Gaear's option 3. Make new mods built on the newest things, like the pending 4.1. The other mods like DH are also optional, so if folks don't want to play a particular thing, whoever may have modded it, then they don't have to. This seems the easiest way to resolve things. Add your stuff in as if it were new again, instead of going all the way back to square one.

    Do these things, too:

    Be responsible for keeping your work up-to-date & compatible; work within the group and community; give credit where it's due; stop being all the things everyone else has mentioned already; test-test-test your changes...

    ...and you should get along fine. But remember...everyone's watching; your reputation as a modder & member of the community will be held to a standard of quality expected of those who have gone before. Enough said.
     
  13. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    Greetings and well met, Orion. I agree with Gaear and the others about your return to Co8.

    Realize, it is a community modding effort and not all modders are diehard 'rules lawyers' and "just for fun" addons will always be a checkbox option that can be deselected in the final release version of a mod.

    To take it one step further, if you would like help discerning the difference between the file versions of the Co8 MODs files and your MOD files, I'd be glad to assist and help. If I had access to your MOD, I could make a zip file copy of your distinct MOD files and provide a copy of the new zip file to you.

    Let us know what your thoughts are on these things, and remember, we will help if asked.
     
  14. Salk

    Salk Established Member

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    I had had big hopes about this from the beginning of the thread and I must say I am really so favourable impressed by everybody's attitude. I want to thank maalri for his very nice words about me *blush* and I want to tell him I have registered recently, months after Orion's self forced exile. Speaking of Orion, I have got to contact him on MSN and he's a nice person to deal with and reasonable enough to understand that he's been rude towards the community as a whole although at the same time he has felt like rejected because of his limited english knowledge and because of his somewhat destabilizing ideas.

    Now the question is: which is the solution that would most benefit 1) The Co8 community 2) Orion 3) ToEE players ?

    Well, the answer is obviously to have Orion back to work as part of the community returning to feel really a part of it, having one and each do his best to try and be polite, respectful and positive about each other ideas.

    Said that, we must consider also this other aspect. Orion's Mod must be quite much different from Co8's else he would have not left. The changes can't be that minor and obviously Orion must care much for them.

    So what can we do ?

    First you should evaluate Orion's Mod and its compatibility with the latest Co8's release and how it could matain its own identity without compromising Co8's original layout.

    Only after this step has been taken, you can discuss if it's really possible or not to integrate Orion's work in the next future Co8's release.

    I am no modder but I would believe that Orion's Mod itself would benefit of many new improvements that come with the next Co8's patches. At the same time, I do very much appreciate Orion's insight about an ideal CRPGs although I respect of course other people's opposing views.

    I am really looking forward to this subject to develop and I trust it will do so in a spirit of full respect and collaboration! Thanks!
     
  15. Agetian

    Agetian Attorney General Administrator

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    @ 0rion79: I agree with what has been said in this thread before and I think that you should definitely consider an option to return back to the community. It may sound funny, but the best way for your mod to stay "separate" lies in rejoining the Circle of Eight (rejoining may not be the correct word though -- no one ever banned you from here, but you know what I mean). That way you'll stay up to date with recent updates to the Co8 mod, and your mod will always be an option for people who would like to use it. Our mod always lists various subparts as optional, so people who don't like them may simply choose not to install them.

    Of course, I'd like to add that returning to the Co8 means cooperation, not opposition. It means that you must not say dirty stuff about the Co8 mod or any modders working on it, and always give due credit if you use someone's work directly. That way I assume no one here will say anything bad about you or your mod either. Other than that, personally I have no objections to your return to the Co8, and I see that many other people also agree with this point of view.

    - Agetian
     
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