[Spoilers!] What's a full list of actions in Co8 New Content with T+ that causes a Paladin to fall?

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Endarire, Nov 24, 2020.

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  1. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

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    Greetings, all!

    I'm glad that the Hommlet drinking contest no longer strips Paladinhood, but what else does? I know about atonement, but I want to know what would prompt the need for such.

    Thankee!
     
  2. sigofmugmort

    sigofmugmort Established Member Supporter

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    making "use" of the brothel in Nulb
     
  3. FDR4PREZ

    FDR4PREZ Established Member

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    The paladin should be virtuous, high moral standards, etc, so in theory he should fall if partaking in the drinking contest.

    but that's just my opinion
     
  4. erkper

    erkper Bugbear Monk Supporter

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    A paladin of Moradin might disagree about heavy drinking being an inherent moral failing. But that's all been rehashed many times in the past and I don't really want to start the debate over again.
     
  5. FDR4PREZ

    FDR4PREZ Established Member

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    I didn't say that.

    I said a paladin shouldn't partake in a drinking game. Replace "drinking game" with a dice game, or a poker game, etc.

    I am not opening a debate...just voicing an opinion.

    I am not sure if the drinking game paladin falling is part of the T+ options for Stricter Rules Enforcement, or some other House Rule in there
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    No sir, that's OG.
    Wasn't the main issue that the pally falls if ANYONE enters the contest?
     
  7. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Probably. 'condition_add_with_args("Fallen_Paladin",0,0)' tended to nuke every paladin indiscriminately - I seem to remember it would even take down paladins not in the party (not really an issue in ToEE which originally had no paladin NPCs but I saw it happen somewhere).

    Endarire - I'm a bit confused by your title. Are you asking for other examples of changes in T+, or are you asking for any and all examples in Co8? If the latter, just run 'condition_add_with_args("Fallen_Paladin",0,0)' through a file search in data/dlg and data/scr and tell us what you find. Win98 will do it in Explorer, otherwise you may need something like Notepad++.
    I bet you can't make an argument for a paladin falling from playing cards. ;)
     
  8. FDR4PREZ

    FDR4PREZ Established Member

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    Playing Old Maid, or Bridge, or Crazy 8s, Go Fish, etc, should be OK.

    Strip Poker is NOT ok

    The Drinking Contest isn't for money, like a dice game or poker game would typically be. It is for bragging rights, so this is why the old school righteous/virtuous Paladins shouldn't partake.

    And then I guess he needs to go hide in the corner as your thief goes around and loots all the bodies :confused:
     
  9. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Strip poker? Well played :p but I also think I agree, I never had a problem with the whole 'Paladin falling' element of this quest. Albeit it was a function of the reputation, which affects the whole group, not the pc.condition_add_with_args("Fallen_Paladin",0,0) command, now that I tihnk about it. But its like the alignment element of things: the game is specifically set to check for party alignment - complete with 9 different starting vignettes - not the alignment of every different PC. If you go the LN route but fill your party with LE villains, for instance, it's no one elses fault if the aligment-based dialogue options feel off. Ditto here - a party with a paladin should act like it, not have the bard and rogue doing some dodgy dealings on the side.
     
  10. erkper

    erkper Bugbear Monk Supporter

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    But not all Pallys are the same. You specifically pick gods for characters that have different beliefs and hold different moral standards, and thus should not all be held to the same cookie-cutter standard. A paladin of Moradin (a LG god) would and should certainly hold different beliefs as to whether drinking was "proper" and what they should not do to "act like a pally" than some other LG gods' followers might.

    Oh lord, now I started rehashing it...
     
  11. Pygmy

    Pygmy Established Member Supporter

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    A dwarven paladin of Moradin who entered the drinking contest wearing Dwarven Plate Armor should definitely fall.
     
  12. FDR4PREZ

    FDR4PREZ Established Member

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    This may be a downside to a computer ran RP game. For a real DM, he keep all that in mind and make the needed changes on the fly.

    Plus, i don't recall our DM requiring a party alignment. I know he'd keep track of a party reputation for how townfolk would react, and such, but he'd not require a specified initial party alignment.


    While paladin should be the captain of the party and hold himself responsible for the actions of the party and the members contained within it, that still doesn't mean a bard or rogue, or anyone member, couldn't try and do some necessary things that the paly doesn't know about - until such a time it is necessary to tell him :cool:
     
  13. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    If you want to mod the game to work like that, go right ahead. ;)
    That's why they call it getting stoned. :jerkin: :kirby: :evil_grin: :various_other_emojis_we_no_longer_have:
    Yes you did! It's Erkper's fault, everyone!

    I do have to ask you to provide evidence that Moradin would have no problem with this. The fact that Dwarven society tolerates drunkenness (perhaps even encourages it) does not mean that their god is fine with drinking to the point of becoming unconscious - that is, of deliberately drinking past the point of losing all capacity to make moral decisions. References, I need references!
     
  14. FDR4PREZ

    FDR4PREZ Established Member

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    Well, this is certainly how we'd be playing our PNP games.

    I think some common sayings we used were:

    "screw that Goody Two Shoes, we'll do what we want!!!"
    "well it sucks you're playing paladin, we are going to go do THIS while your character is sleeping"
    "too bad we have a paladin in our party, well, I guess we can't go do that fun thing"

    At some point paladins weren't played any longer in our group
     
  15. Nightcanon

    Nightcanon Garrulous Halfling

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    The party alignment thing in TOEE is just the game's way of setting up some starting points that try to make thematic sense, and doesn't have a P&P analogue. The problems (you can't mix CG and LN, but a Paladin of Heironius and a Cleric of Hextor get on just fine...) are nevertheless largely due to the quirks of the D&D alignment system.
    I personally wouldn't have a Paladin fall if a fellow party member accepted a challenge to a drinking contest or gambled: the common folk have their entertainments, however unsavoury or unwise (and a hangover or lightened purse is an opportunity for a sermon the following day).
    With Dwarves, it depends how far you are going down the Order of the Stick parody line. I wouldn't let a Dwarven Paladin seek out drinking contests as a way to make money, but I'd allow them to accept a challenge to racial pride and dignity made by a human in a bar. Fall only if you lose, perhaps!
    I assume that folks are aware of the pages and pages of Paladin 'gotcha' stories and Ill-feeling on the Internet. A computer game is always going to have debatable interpretations, but is at least amenable to re-dos if it can't do subtlety.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
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