[SPOILER] Need help with Demons and Demigods quest

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by UncleBuck, Jan 20, 2012.

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  1. Nightcanon

    Nightcanon Garrulous Halfling

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    I can't remember what version of the the New Content I was playing in 2012, though it won't have been NC8 since that only came out in 2013. If I recall correctly, it was one of the first where Deities and Demigods was present as a quest, and the level 10+ XP fix wasn't in place at that stage (i.e. characters continued to earn XP as if they were 10th level right up to level 20; simply running through the War of the Golden Skull would net you around 4 or 5 levels of advancement, with no opportunities to rest and learn new spells). You could call this an exploit if you like, though the option not to take the extra XP wasn't available at that stage.
    As I state in my original post, this was an organically-grown party built to beat the various dungeons in the game (hence some slightly odd choices off class etc), primarily via melee combat as I had already done the whole magic-heavy thing.
    For comparison, my recent games have been limited to 4-5 characters in total (PCs + NPCs) and I rarely hit level 11 before arriving in Verbobonc; if I play through to the very end I'm generally just about hitting 17th level when I run out of things to fight (Gods and Demons included). I'd kind of assumed that getting to level 20 was now only acheivable by level-sqatting on solo runs.
     
  2. hugin7

    hugin7 Member

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    Thank you, that explains it - earning XP as if you're level 10 for the rest of the game makes a huge difference. :)

     
  3. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    Didn't you also mention holding off on advancing beyond level 10 prior to the Temple? That could account for some of the lost XP (though certainly not all), as there's a chunk of new content before the Temple too.
     
  4. hugin7

    hugin7 Member

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    I enabled the "Allow XP overflow" option in Temple+ to allow XP accumulation beyond level 10, but did not level up beyond 10 until I reached Verbobonc. I did all of the pre-temple new content. This allowed my party to hit level 14.5 as soon as I got to Verbobonc, so I merely deferred, but did not lose, XP.

    I strongly suspect that the XP bug that Nightcanon mentioned fully explains the difference due to how challenge rating scales.

     
  5. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    Ah... I didn't know Temple+ had that option.
     
  6. florian1

    florian1 Established Member

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    When enabling XP overflow, I believe that by delaying leveling up, you gain more XP than usual, because you gain more XP for killing enemies at level 10 than if you had leveled up to 11, 12, etc. as soon as you accumulated enough XP for the next level.
     
  7. hugin7

    hugin7 Member

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    That is the case in many games, but not in ToEE + Co8 + Temple+. I tested this early in the game and found that I got the same XP regardless of whether I leveled up or not. I also tried leveling up some of my party members while leaving others unleveled, and all got the same XP for each fight.

    I've seen old ToEE guides that suggest that deferring leveling up did increase XP at some point, so perhaps Co8 or Temple+ changed this behavior.

    The most extreme example of effective XP deferral I've ever come across was with Icewind Dale II Heart of Fury mode. It is meant as a "new game+" mode, but I was bent playing it with level 1 characters from the start. By freezing my level very early and using generously scaling summons/invisibility, I was able to reach max level very early in the game and my summons easily slaughtered anything thrown my way, while the party went untouched. Effective, but rather monotonous after a while. :)

     
  8. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    Just so there's no confusion, the white dragon quest was originally intended to be encountered when the party were around 5th level, the new content got moved to the end game but this content wasn't scaled up to be a challenge for level 14 characters... though doing so should be relatively easy, adding extra levels to the Drow, and a few age adjustments to the white dragons (Juvenile to Young and Adult to Old or Ancient respectively) should do the trick.
     
  9. florian1

    florian1 Established Member

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    If by early game you mean you tested it during character levels 1 to 3, you would not see any difference in XP awards, since levels 1-3 all get the same XP. I believe at character level 4 the XP begins to become less for the same CR of opponents. This is true to PnP.
     
  10. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Not true ... they were rather meticulously overhauled - CR, level, AI, spells, tactics, etc. Because just plopping them down in a high level scenario as is would be kind of reckless and lame. ;)
     
  11. hugin7

    hugin7 Member

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    Excellent finding - confirmed via high level test. A pity that I tested this too early, which lead to an incorrect conclusion.

     
  12. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    OH! Sorry, my mistake... and thanks :D
     
  13. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    Thanks for the clarification Gaear... I was beginning to wonder if I was doing something very very wrong the first time I fought that dragon (and had to reload numerous times...).
     
  14. Kriegdoom

    Kriegdoom Member

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    has anyone defeated the 4 Iuz since Temple+ AI improvements? Iuz now ignores all summoned creatures and will generally ignore anyone within a resilient sphere. They go after the weakest PC first and will go around stronger PCs to get to them.
     
  15. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

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    Iuz God's fight is open to many strategies.

    I suspect the primary is to simply use the swords of answering to get counter attack hits. I personally never use them.

    And you can craft items (holy, wounding bows to drain con/HP, etc. that can make this a lot easier)

    Summons will indeed be ignored, but can be used as path blockers if you wish such micromanagement.

    I usually try to fight all the gods fights with no buffs to simulate the actual RP of how it happens, but I do craft some scrolls and buy wands. Also usually self-found/no-crafting.

    Here are some of my strategies:

    1. Improved initiative feat is important for who moves first, because usually if an Iuz gets an attack on an unprepared PC, it usually means death for that PC, especially if it is in 5' move range. (you can raise them, but it is a pita)

    2. Use the weakest character as bait. Gods will usually stupidly chase it, unless you put another PC in 5' danger zone. You can set up so that Iuz will run a gauntlet of AaOs, or rather be in a range where your fighters can do single attack and then move away (not 5' move, but single attack). As long as you don't get a full round of attacks from Iuz, everyone can survive just on hit. Make sure Iuz can't just 5' move to get in range, as well. Feats like Spring attack are really handy here, btw.

    3. obviously try to split them up...but at minimum focus on one at a time.

    4. Iuz will attack an animal companion. Mostly helpful at the start to help get the party going and delay/split up one Iuz. Depending on how you delay the 4 Iuz, it might die in first round (usually) or it may die in second round.

    5. Iuz has free action. So all the fog and other slow spells that work with Cuthbert don't work with Iuz. But...

    Soften Earth and Stone (Druid/Earth Domain - small radius, no SR). Reflex save. Even if save, 1/2 speed for 1-2 rounds. failure to save is held for 1-2 rounds. This works to gain breathing room, especially on an Iuz that rolled good initiative. They will save but it spreads them out and helps give the party more breathing room at the start. Used to be not subject to free action, but haven't played for a while.

    Spiked stones can work too, but iirc it's too much pita for the party too, if you make any mistake.

    6. buff on the run for whatever number of rounds that takes and then get to business.

    7. Quicken is very handy to get 2 spell buffs per round. Or even one, because often your casters may have to prioritize moving.

    8. and as I said, I buy wands so other characters can help buff each other. I usually give all characters some Umd, and drinking a greater heroism or getting it as a buff asap adds +4 to success.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2023
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