[SPOILER] Need help with Demons and Demigods quest

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by UncleBuck, Jan 20, 2012.

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  1. Nightcanon

    Nightcanon Garrulous Halfling

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    I can't remember what version of the the New Content I was playing in 2012, though it won't have been NC8 since that only came out in 2013. If I recall correctly, it was one of the first where Deities and Demigods was present as a quest, and the level 10+ XP fix wasn't in place at that stage (i.e. characters continued to earn XP as if they were 10th level right up to level 20; simply running through the War of the Golden Skull would net you around 4 or 5 levels of advancement, with no opportunities to rest and learn new spells). You could call this an exploit if you like, though the option not to take the extra XP wasn't available at that stage.
    As I state in my original post, this was an organically-grown party built to beat the various dungeons in the game (hence some slightly odd choices off class etc), primarily via melee combat as I had already done the whole magic-heavy thing.
    For comparison, my recent games have been limited to 4-5 characters in total (PCs + NPCs) and I rarely hit level 11 before arriving in Verbobonc; if I play through to the very end I'm generally just about hitting 17th level when I run out of things to fight (Gods and Demons included). I'd kind of assumed that getting to level 20 was now only acheivable by level-sqatting on solo runs.
     
  2. hugin7

    hugin7 Member

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    Thank you, that explains it - earning XP as if you're level 10 for the rest of the game makes a huge difference. :)

     
  3. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    Didn't you also mention holding off on advancing beyond level 10 prior to the Temple? That could account for some of the lost XP (though certainly not all), as there's a chunk of new content before the Temple too.
     
  4. hugin7

    hugin7 Member

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    I enabled the "Allow XP overflow" option in Temple+ to allow XP accumulation beyond level 10, but did not level up beyond 10 until I reached Verbobonc. I did all of the pre-temple new content. This allowed my party to hit level 14.5 as soon as I got to Verbobonc, so I merely deferred, but did not lose, XP.

    I strongly suspect that the XP bug that Nightcanon mentioned fully explains the difference due to how challenge rating scales.

     
  5. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    Ah... I didn't know Temple+ had that option.
     
  6. florian1

    florian1 Established Member Supporter

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    When enabling XP overflow, I believe that by delaying leveling up, you gain more XP than usual, because you gain more XP for killing enemies at level 10 than if you had leveled up to 11, 12, etc. as soon as you accumulated enough XP for the next level.
     
  7. hugin7

    hugin7 Member

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    That is the case in many games, but not in ToEE + Co8 + Temple+. I tested this early in the game and found that I got the same XP regardless of whether I leveled up or not. I also tried leveling up some of my party members while leaving others unleveled, and all got the same XP for each fight.

    I've seen old ToEE guides that suggest that deferring leveling up did increase XP at some point, so perhaps Co8 or Temple+ changed this behavior.

    The most extreme example of effective XP deferral I've ever come across was with Icewind Dale II Heart of Fury mode. It is meant as a "new game+" mode, but I was bent playing it with level 1 characters from the start. By freezing my level very early and using generously scaling summons/invisibility, I was able to reach max level very early in the game and my summons easily slaughtered anything thrown my way, while the party went untouched. Effective, but rather monotonous after a while. :)

     
  8. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    Just so there's no confusion, the white dragon quest was originally intended to be encountered when the party were around 5th level, the new content got moved to the end game but this content wasn't scaled up to be a challenge for level 14 characters... though doing so should be relatively easy, adding extra levels to the Drow, and a few age adjustments to the white dragons (Juvenile to Young and Adult to Old or Ancient respectively) should do the trick.
     
  9. florian1

    florian1 Established Member Supporter

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    If by early game you mean you tested it during character levels 1 to 3, you would not see any difference in XP awards, since levels 1-3 all get the same XP. I believe at character level 4 the XP begins to become less for the same CR of opponents. This is true to PnP.
     
  10. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Not true ... they were rather meticulously overhauled - CR, level, AI, spells, tactics, etc. Because just plopping them down in a high level scenario as is would be kind of reckless and lame. ;)
     
  11. hugin7

    hugin7 Member

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    Excellent finding - confirmed via high level test. A pity that I tested this too early, which lead to an incorrect conclusion.

     
  12. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    OH! Sorry, my mistake... and thanks :D
     
  13. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    Thanks for the clarification Gaear... I was beginning to wonder if I was doing something very very wrong the first time I fought that dragon (and had to reload numerous times...).
     
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