Rogue Guide

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Ranth, Apr 28, 2010.

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  1. Ranth

    Ranth Established Member

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    Can someone help me out with how to play a rogue? Whenever I am playing the game, I think 'It would be nice to have a rogue' but whenever I play one I find them completely useless other than picking locks. They cant hold their own in melee, they get slaughteed (at least for me).

    I have heard they are amazing at later levels, especially ranged. For those of you who are rogue fans, what do you recommend? Bow, x-bow? Dual wield?
     
  2. The Royal Canadian

    The Royal Canadian Established Member

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    Hi Ranth
    I never play a "Pure" Rogue, because unlike Icewind Dale II, you really don't need a Rogue higher than 4th or 5th Level (depending on Ability and Skill Points). I usually run an Elf Rogue/Wizard, starting off with Rogue until 4th Level and then switching to Wizard for the rest of the game. I always stick him in the back with a Long Bow (with Point Blank and Precise Shot feats he does fairly well).
    The Royal Canadian
     
  3. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    I generally go ranged, but thats personal preference. The thing is, you get sneak attacks (1d6/2 levels) whenever you flank, so imagine a 9th level rogue: 5d6 extra damage every time he makes a flank attack (vs a critter not immune). If he gets 3/2 attacks per round with a full attack (or whatever, probably not at lvl 9 but you get my drift) thats a LOT of extra damage.

    Thats how I understand it.
     
  4. TerMany

    TerMany Member

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    What about weapons? Bows, XBow, or repeaters? There was a thread earlier that seemed to say repeaters seems to be the best. Is that true for ranged rogues?
     
  5. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    Inb4 Necro (we all know what he can say, right?) - he claims that improved initiative + beefed up shortbow is worth it. Can't say I can confirm this, but maybe I didn't try hard.

    A rogue double-classes to ranger or fighter is what you may be looking for. A small race rogue would be also getting AC and to hit bonuses against bigger creatures. I'm trying to play a wpn finesse + improved init + keen rapier rogue this time around, I'll tell you how it goes. The idea is to rely on critical on sneak attack Worthless against creatures with DR though (so is a bow though). I'll tell you how it goes, but should work.

    Even though Dual Wield SOUNDS like a good idea for rogues, I have confirmed time and again that DW straight rogues in TOEE are worthless, they can never hit AAAnything (unless you make them CG and give them Frag+Scather I guess, but that's cheating). Perhaps a GAY rogue would work for DW (roguexfighter mebbe), but I have never tried.

    Frankly, this is a first time in a long while that I'm using a rogue. Just grab an extra mage and have him learn knock.
     
  6. acemcjack

    acemcjack Member

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    Hello,

    One of my better rogue builds in TOEE was a dual +2 keen dagger wielding Halfling rogue, who my wizard/sorcerer/bard often cast greater invisibility upon for amazing results. At higher levels, with 4+ attacks per round (TWF), weapon finesse and the rogue's crippling strike feat, she'd wreak havoc on the enemy with her sneak attacks. One time, confronting Hedrak, she managed to kill him in one round.

    I actually found this build a little too powerful, so eventually I had to hold back with her so as not to kill hedrak right away.

    Not to mention, she could disable any trap easily, open almost any lock and sneak anywhere without being spotted.

    I never saw the need to multiclass her (perhaps a few levels of sorcerer or wizard so she could cast greater invisibility on herself without relying on other party members).
     
  7. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    When I play a rogue they are extremely effective. Their key is their ability to sneak attack with bows within 30 feet for extra damage dice. This, however, has several requirements:

    1. You can sneak attack any enemy that is flat footed.
    2. You can sneak attack any enemy if you are invisible. (blink works too I think)
    3. You can only sneak attack within 30 feet.
    4. Some creatures are plain immune to sneak attack, sorry. (undead, golems, etc)

    This means you want to put a greater invisiblity on your rogue at the start of battle. You also want to maximize the attacks. First, rogue benefits a lot from being elves. Elves get +2 dex, -2 con (rogues will not be hit a lot), +2 to search spot and listen, and they also get the ability to automatically perform search rolls whenever come near a secret door (at least in PnP, I am not sure if this is also the case in TOEE)... Elves are also proficient in longbows.
    If you are playing a non elf, just use the shortbow.

    Weapons:
    Large Crossbow - This weapon does not allow more then one attack per round, even with rapid reload, pass.
    Small Crossbow - This weapon requires a feat to allow more then one attack per round, however, it has inferior range and damage to a longbow, so its not worth the feat.
    Reaping Crossbow - This weapon requires a feat to use. and must be reloaded as a full round action ever 5 shots, and has the same poor damage and range. I really don't see any point whatsoever to this weapon. (I think in PnP you might be able to dual wield two of those).
    Shortbow: rogues are proficient with that, use it if not an elf.
    Longbow: Best ranged weapon...
    Composite longbow (STR #) - gives you a bonus to damage equal to (#-10)/2 and gives a -2 penalty to hit if your STR score is below that number.

    For feats take:
    1. point blank shot: Gives +1 to attack and to damage within 30 feet, a prerequisite for all other bow feats.

    2. Rapid shot: gives 1 extra attack for a -2 to hit for all attacks, this is excellent since that extra attack can trigger a sneak attack. Be aware that you need to enable it via the radial menu.

    3. Precise shot: avoid -4 to hit penalty when shooting into melee

    4. Improved initiative: +4 to initiative, helps you go first, going first means enemies are still flatfooted

    5. Manyshot: Gives extra damage, also needs to be enabled. Not as amazing as the previous three, but every bit helps, right?

    Those feats are your highest priority.
    Give them an uber bow of death which you crafted, and watch the carnage... just remember to ensure that they get their sneak attacks. Because their dex is highest they likely go first, make sure you attack enemies which are close and that have not gone yet (flat footed)..

    for buffs they need improved invisibility and haste (extra attack on full attack)

    map the key A to full attack and use it to direct their attacks arrow by arrow. Remember to wait until it hits before clicking again or you will lose extra attacks (TOEE bug).

    Give them a vest of escape, it is theives tools + always on freedom of movement item. If everyone in the party has FOM you can throw webs to prevent your enemies from closing on you.
     
  8. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    The master of maxing has spoken ;)

    I think a human would be better for taltamir's build, for the extra feat.
     
  9. Hugh Manetee

    Hugh Manetee Established Member

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    I almost always use a rogue.
    Usually a human sometimes a gnome.
    I take two weapon combat two weapon defense.
    improved weapon combat
    once you get some elvin armour and a magical weapon they are unstoppable.
    Plus they have great social skills.
     
  10. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    I don't know. TWF is best reserved for rangers and fighters, imo. Rogues with TWF barely ever hit.
     
  11. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    Combat wise, you are correct, a human benefits from the extra feat.
    I go with elf because of the automatic search rolls.
    I am not actually sure if it works that way in TOEE or not... has someone played with a human rogue and managed to find secret doors without clicking the search command from the radial menu?

    Elven armor is not as good for a rogue as plain old padded armor (the armor that gives +1 AC and allows +8 dex mod to AC)...
    Of course, this requires that your rogue actually manage to reach a dex mod of 8+ (26+ dex)... but its not that hard to do.

    I start my rogues with studded leather, then switch to leather, then switch to padded armor.
     
  12. acemcjack

    acemcjack Member

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    Why gnome instead of halfling?

    +2 Dex is better for a rogue than +2 Con, IMO.
     
  13. Hugh Manetee

    Hugh Manetee Established Member

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    I don't like the halfling models.
    I don't seem to have any trouble with my rogues hitting in combat once they get to about level three.
     
  14. ShadowDeth

    ShadowDeth Save Versus : Stupid

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    Dual wield. If you're not patient enough to wait until 3rd level to get your blender up and running, take a level of fighter to qualify for finesse and TWF ASAP, then multi-class into rogue.

    A properly built rogue is almost entirely un-hittable, and towards the end of the game can one or two shot a Balor with a surprise round on his side.

    I've played straight rogues and my Hybrid build, and I've come to the conclusion that Fighter 2/ Rogue X is superior. Your skills catch up in a few levels and your BAB is now competitive - along with the bonus feats and HP the build offers.

    Something like

    1) TWF
    Human) Weapon Finesse
    Fighter ) Improved Initiative

    is enough to get you going. Anything after that, besides completing your TWF chain is up to taste. I either choose to pick up archery as a secondary, or Weapon Focus and Improved Critical in a chosen weapon.

    And towards the middle to end of your build, your rogue is consistently doing upwards of 100 damage per turn. My halfling 10th level rogue from my very first play through of TOEE one shotted the Balor (Haste, Icy daggers, Improved Invisibility).

    I walked up behind him and unloaded a full round attack.

    The stats I always use for rogues are :

    STR 10
    DEX 18
    CON 10
    INT 13
    WIS 8
    CHA 8

    with 25 point buy, and I leave face skills up to someone else in the party so he can concentrate on Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Open Locks, Disable Device and Search. After your stat increases at 4th level, and 8th you can have your dexterity at 20 and with gloves of Dexterity +4-6 (Depending on whether your craft or not) you never have a problem hitting anything.

    Now, by himself the rogue can only alpha strike once every two rounds (Ring of invisibility enables him to solo tough monsters), but with Glitterdust, Invisibility/Greater, or flanking support your rogue will deal the most damage per turn out of every other class in the game. Short of a MAx strength, full power attacking Barbarian.

    Hope that helps? I've never had an issue with my rogues not being effective, perhaps you just don't have the experience yet?
     
  15. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    They get the bonus to checks as they should, but I'm not sure that the auto-search thingy works for them either.... I THINK I've had non-elven rogues do that, but can't confirm atm. I think my half-elven rogue did it on this playthrough. Frankly, I haven't needed to think about that ever since second playthrough - "a bit meta" as you say, but I'm never concerned by these sorts of things, since it does little to change game experience...
     
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