I am interested in building two rogues simultaneously, one as a melee specialist and the other as a missile specialist. This will be a head to head test of combat usefulness. :bored: The real question for ya'll is the feat progression. I usually mix and match, start with a bow (or x-bow) then mix in some melee later. Assume both are human for test balance. Any and all recommendations are appreciated.
Are you wanting straight rogue, or are mix-ins allowed? Either way, I start as rogue (for the skill points) but dip into Fighter for the free extra feats. Taking 4 levels of fighter gets you 3 bonus feats, although you don't have to take them all right away, depending on your build. On the melee build, I might take the Fighter levels earlier, to get weapon specialization. Some might suggest taking Ranger levels, for either build, but I feel you would need too many ranger levels to equal the feat output of fighter levels, which limits your sneak attack damage output. Melee build needs high STR and I think your ability bonuses need to go into STR. DEX and CON are great for any front line fighter, tank or not. CHR and INT are important only if this character is also your face, as even an average INT rogue can keep his skills up enough to handle obstacles in this game. With this melee build, you will want to acquire a Belt of Giant Strength +6 ASAP. Archery build obviously goes for DEX, however a high STR give you access to the great composite bows in the game. And if you are going for combat worthiness, then you will need to use those bows. But anything over an 18 is just gravy or useful if you have to switch to melee. So using Gauntlets of Ogre Power can help , but you will need that space for Gloves of Dexterity+6 when you can get them. Melee feats you will need are Power Attack, Cleeve, Great Cleeve, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and possibly Improved Critical. Now your choice of weapons comes in, and you have 3 routes to go, all with their own advantages: Reach, 2-hander, or dual wield. A reach weapon, like a long spear or ranseur, in this game gives you greater control of the battle field. While they may not do as much damage as a two handed sword or a great axe, you don't have to get as close to hit, and thus enemies without reach weapons cannot hit you, which is great for lower hit point carrying rogues vs fighters or barbarians. Add in a friendly cleric or wizard's Enlarge spell, and you can hit pretty much anything on the screen. A sneaking, or invisible enlarged rogue can sneak attack with great success. A true damage dealer will use a two handed weapon, like a great axe (1d12!) which allows 1.5 times the STR bonus to damage. Add in sneak attack damage and you are really cooking. One might want to invest in Exotic Weapon Specialization to use Scather one handed, since it never misses, and getting in a never missing sneak attack is great! Finally, you may want to go the dual wield route, and use 2 short swords (they are abundant in the game) or maybe specialize in hand axes (since cleavers use the hand axe proficiency), as each attack can get sneak attack damage. But you may find the other options will do more total damage with one big weapons vs two smaller ones. The archery rogue is a great build. You may want to jump over to Fighter at second level and stay there until 3 or 4, to really dig deep into the feat progression at an earlier level. You will need to start with Point Black Shot, then Precise Shot (you will see more fights where the enemies are engaged with your allies early on,later on you might kill them with your arrows before they close on you), then Rapid Shots,then Many Shots. Throw in Weapon Focus, Longbow for good measure. Combat Reflexes never hurts a high DEX character as well. This character should end up with the most kills if played correctly. This spellcaster blasts a Fireball or Holy Word into a crowd. The archery rogue, who may always go first with his DEX bonus to initiative, but who can choose to go later on the round by dragging his portrait down the line in the attack order at the top of the screen, then uses his full attack from the radial menu to shoot individual arrows at weaken enemies, killing as many as possible before they ca go. While the melee rogue/fighter will do more damage, he needs to concentrate on the high hit point opponents, who usually do more damage in return. Remember a good rule of thumb for the archery rogue to get sneak attack damage vs enemies, he must be shooting them from under 30 feet, so to determine that 30' mark, a medium, unencumbered character can walk 30' in a round, so if you can walk up to someone in that round, you are within 30' and thus can sneak attack them. For later rounds, having a friendly caster summon something behind them makes them flanked, and thus can be sneak attacked. With either build, you want to get your rogue level to 10 for the special ability. I like the Crippling Strike feat, as it seems to work well in the game.
Overall I agree with your recommendations, I am considering starting both as fighters to 4th lvl to max out the early feats. My specific curiosity is the high end feats, such as how to work up to the whirlwind attack et al which I have read about on the forum but never used due to splitting between the two 'schools'. I usually use the dual wield "florentine" for the rogue w/ weapon finesse (and quite often Elmo, gr.cleaver & handaxe, no weapon finesse). Would that work well with the high end feats or would it actually be detrimental, therefore going with a single weapon being the best option for damage potential? Here is the plan so far, two ftr/rog, with a wiz and a cle for crafting the necessary gloves, belts etc... and the ocassional short term NPC as needed (Furnok at the beginning).
I'd still start both as a rogue for the extra skill points, make one (whoever has the higher INT) your thieving skills guy and/or your talker, and the other could concentrate on move silently/hide for scouting purposes. Either way, max out tumble.
As a melee Rogue, I say ignore fighter all together... WHat would you rather have, +2 damage from weapon specialization? Or another +2d6 sneak attack damage? Rogues don't really need high strength, just Weapon Finesse for the +hit along with a high dexterity. For my Rogues, I usually go human for the skill points and feats, and then: 1st: Two-Weapon Fighting / Combat Reflexes (flanking sneak attacks make sure that anyone drinking a potion never gets the chance to) 3rd: Weapon Finesse 6th: Either Weapon Focus (though its not that helpful, especially when compared to Weapon Finesse) -or- Whatever Rogue based skill improvement feat you want (I usually do Stealthy) 9th: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 12th: At this point, it's just shoring up weaknesses. You can take Iron Will or Great Fortitude, though Dodge will probably see more use. Just know that more levels of Rogue will give you more and more sneak attack damage as well as better Rogue special abilities. I personally love crippling strike and opportunist. I've had a solo, sneaking Rogue sneak attack six times for about 40-50 damage a normal hit on some mobs.
A mere four levels of Fighter (or Ranger or Barbarian) could add another attack to that routine, so the real question is do you want the extra 2d6 of sneak attack damage, or do you want another attack (and +2 damage if you go Weapon Specialization) all the time?
Tathum and Daryk: Those are great points about sneak attack damage vs. one extra attack. Also, that choice affects how soon and how many special Rogue abilities the character will get. How is opportunist working for you Tathum? I've read that some perople have problems with it not activating when it should or even activating off the Rogue.
The problem with a high DEX character, even with Weapon Finesse, id the bonus is only added to the hit roll, with a high STR character, that bonus is added to hit and damage rolls, thus overall more effecting. Adding in Weapon Focus and Specialization, those add to both rolls as well. The BAB progression of fighting classes is higher that straight rogues as well. Bottom line, you cannot get any sneak attack damage if you do not hit first.
I've never found opportunist very useful in TOEE. IIRC, you have to give up an AoO for it, which makes it mostly useless. I suppose with Combat Reflexes it's somewhat useful but still, eh. The first ever TWF rogue I rolled had exactly this problem. They definitely need fighter levels. Bow rogues not so much, but still useful for the extra feats.
Wow! I am surprised that it uses one. I assumed that is was a "free" attack. I have yet to get a Rogue to 10th level but if I had to put the special feats in ranked order: 1) Crippling Strike 2) Improved Evasion 3) ???? 4) ??? 5) ????
