Reduced XP awards testing thread

Assuming a 20% reduction in xp, then a 10th lvl party that was just over 45000 would be 36000, or lvl 9. That's with no sidequest, respawns, etc. I think we're looking at lvl 9 to 11 at Temple lvl 4 . How significant is this towards game balance, etc? Level 9 with no mods, level 11 with.?

 

Actually, the figures you mention would be if the 20% was of what was awarded when the level was set at 70%--but the 20% is of the 'initial' 100%, so you get something closer to a 28.5% decrease by dropping the xp award to 50%, which means 45,000 xp at 70% would be ~32150 xp at 50%.

To be honest, I would've expected 50% to have been a little too severe, and for it to have been tweaked up a little bit to 55%, mainly to allow a little crafting/raising-dead leeway. But it sounds like even 50% leaves plenty of xp to go around. Interesting.

 

I think it's not the level that makes the game so easy.
It's the number of magic items, however the xp reduction
is also a good idea. I mean by level 3 my party already has
a shit load of stuff including a holy sword given by an ordinary
farmer (wouldn't it be more realistic if he gave me a masterwork
custom-looking one engraved by the Hommlet jeweller especially for his
new son-in-law?. I would also suggest distributing starting equipment
in a different way. Something like: let the player choose 2 types of
weapons he wants for each character and a standard package armour
(from the source book) and let him\her customize the character's appearance,
that is boots, hats (drow masks ), cloaks, etc + rolling for gold (according
to the starting package). I mean, Allyx's shop-map is great but it makes the
start much easier IMHO... it would be a great special encounter though, hmm
maybe something related with the gnolls you can let go at the moathouse?

 

Well, Allyx's shopmap was added because normally in D&D you're allowed to buy whatever starting equipment you can afford and if you read the manual, it sounds like Troika originally intended to start the game with the party buying the equipment instead of pre-assigning it.

 

:sweatdrop looks like I've been using a major exploit after all... damn, this is the second time a neat trick I found turns out to be a bug exploit. (first one was rogue archers remaining in stealth mode after attacking, yielding a sneak attack every time they hit. They fixed it in patch 2, I think)

But going by the rules, it seems that fascinate should be nearly useless in the game, since it's unusable in combat, and thus can only work against lone non-KOS critters (how many of those do you have in the game, besides Nulb and Hommlet?). Might as well remove it entirely in that case. I wonder though, why would Troika include such a thing in the first place? Is it possible that the rules regarding fascinate have changed in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5 and Troika didn't notice, or did they just implement it this way to make the bard more powerful?

A little higher than that, actually, since a lower level means you'd get a bigger XP reward for the same monsters.

I agree, the holy longsword needs to go. Or, as I mentioned in the first post - make the courtship phases of Meleny dependent on the game's story state variable (it's constantly used in dialogues: 1 = exploring Moathouse, 2 = Cleared Moathouse, 3 = exploring Nulb, 4 = exploring Temple, 5 = Found out about elemental factions within, 6 = found out about Zuggy). In the Laszlo quest, the one where the widowed guy pretends to court you, Eddie's reaction to you depends on this variable in an attempt to approximate the passage of time. Likewise we can easily make courting Meleny dependent on this variable, so you won't be able to marry her right at the beginning of the game.

Does it also allow the party to pool together its resources together at character creation? If not, then the shop map is a bit of an exploit, because then it lets you buy something you normally couldn't afford (breastplate/half-plate for instance).

 

@Kal and Sitra:
That's what I was talking about.

Status update:
Level 2 gained
I've done most of the quests in Hommlet,
killed the spiders and all of the frogs outside
the moathouse. I gave Jay's wife's ring and
kazaam.
Now venturing to the moathouse... stay tuned.

(Just noticed another thing) Well, the jeweller
couldn't make the sword for his son-in-law
because he says it's a family heirloom. ;P
Either way the holy sword is too powerful.

 

The problem is that almost nothing meaningful can be done with by the rules Fascinate in TOEE; that's why it was made into a poor man's Hold spell in the first place. If we nerf it, what should it be replaced with?

 

Well isn't there a way to force it not to work
in combat just like Search skill?

 

Troika always intended for you to be able to go to the Moathouse with a few magic weapons, including the Great Cleaver and the Holy Long Sword as the marriage quest rewards. It gave you a reason to take the NPCs, and it made the Moathouse a bit easier. IIRC, the early interviews with Troika folks stated that "Even a party of five gnomish bards should be able to finish the game".

IMO the holy sword and other original items in Hommlet should stay. If we don't like them, we don't need to use them.

 

What would the point be of having it at all if it didn't work in combat? To let your rogue pickpocket townsfolk more easily? Again, I'd suggest either just leaving it alone.

 

I guess if the creature stops being fascinated when
it's hit it MAY be regarded as rules compliant.

 

The creature does stop being fascinated when it's hit.

 

Level 3
I had some unexpected problems at the moathouse
I had to reload the game about 20 times to beat the
bugbears there! No one could hit the one in chain shirt
what a clever bastard, using trip attack. This however
occured because I wasn't resting (to stick a bit to realism)
so I had no spells, etc. Eventually I killed the bugbears,
now to finish off Lareth and the ogre.
==================================
There may be problems with opening locks, my rogue
with super dexterity + max skill at level 2in open locks
couldn't chests in the moathouse (the DC was higher by
1 from the highest throw possible in-game with a level 2
rogue) unless I cast guidance.

 

I just checked my 3.0 PHB and the text for Fascinate is the same.

Why did Troika do it? Why did Troika allow Charm Person to turn enemies against their allies or turn Suggestion into Dominate Monster? Who knows?

I definitely think this is the way to go. I'd hate to eliminate it from the game, but making it so you can't just click on Meleny 3 times or whatever and get the sword would definitely help.

That depends on the party/players. There's nothing in the rules saying the rogue can't go "Hey, anyone have some extra cash I can borrow? I want to get myself some masterwork studded leather? I'll pay you guys back as soon as we find some treasure."

Also, taking ranks in appropriate Craft skills can get you some of your starting equipment at 1/3 the cost by making it yourself. (Assuming the DM doesn't rule that your character sprang into being an instant before the campaign started and thus didn't have time to make said items ahead of time.)

Who says it needs to be replaced with anything. Paladins don't get their mounts in ToEE, but they weren't given anything to compensate. Wizards should be able to learn spells from the spellbooks of defeated enemy wizards, but they don't exist in ToEE. Fighters only get 1 Class skill because all the others don't exist in the game. Most of the classes miss out on things of varying levels of importance in ToEE. (Not trying to be snide here. Just pointing out there's a lot of stuff that Troika just plain didn't implement in ToEE.)

I think that quote from Troika really sums up our balance problem right there. Troika built the game to be winnable by anyone. Which, cudos to them for making a game that doesn't force you to play any one particular way. The problem is if 5 gnomish bards can beat the game, a well-developed party is going to have a real easy time of it.