Project Jerkstop: The Final Solution

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by Gaear, Mar 14, 2012.

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  1. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Hello, just thought I'd report back.

    Completed 4.0.1 without any sign of jerkstop. My 7.1.0NC game did have jerkstop eventually. I played both games in a similar style:

    4 character team: vanilla rogue, cleric, (fighter or paladin) and wizard. Pretty straight forward.

    I only picked up followers when I got to the nodes and then only to escort them out.

    On a side note, I noticed that 4.0.1 was a lot more challenging. Perhaps because I was at a lower level without the NC, but I'm not sure.

    And wow, the nodes were a real pain back then - constant crashing and feezing. You guys have fixed some serious problems :peace:
     
  2. gazra_1971

    gazra_1971 Knights of Legend

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    I just finished version 3.0.4 of the Circle of Eight Modpack. I didn't do everything in the game, just the major content. My party (with a Lawful Good party alignment) consisted of 7 player-made PCs who I kept single-class (3 fighters, 1 rogue, 1 cleric, 1 druid with his Brown Bear companion, 1 sorcerer). They all each finished the game at level 8. I didn't do any item-crafting and I never used the console.

    All throughout the game, I kept resting my party upstairs in the Inn of the Welcome Wench for 8 hours and then immediately exited the inn, and ran my party between the inn and Brother Smyth. I never once experienced (either form of) jerkstop.

    In 3.0.4, I only ever experienced 1 CTD (crash-to-desktop) - it happened after I had been clicking on the repuation tabs and quest tabs (Hommlet, Nulb, Temple) in the Logbook, and the CTD happened the instant that I clicked on the Ego tab in the Logbook. Version 3.0.4 seems to be MUCH more stable than the later versions of the Circle of Eight Modpack (because I experience many more CTDs when playing the later versions of the Co8 Modpack).

    Although I didn't clear out or explore all of the elemental nodes (I just moved from the entry point to the guardian in each elemental node), I never experienced any lag or lock-ups in the Fire Temple (where Bassanio and the 2 Noble Salamanders and the Flame Brothers are) or in the elemental nodes at all! In the later versions of the Co8 Modpacks, I ALWAYS experience chronic lag in the Fire Temple, and chronic lag and lockups in the Fire node, Earth node, and Air Node.

    In fact, the only time (in the entire game) that I experienced a temporary lock-up (which lasted for about half a minute) was during the combat with Hedrack - it happened just after one of the wizards at the back cast a spell (I think that it was Ray of Enfeeblement) on one of my characters (the game engine seemed to struggle to show the animations of a character under the effect of the Enfeeblement spell).

    However, I experienced really bad lag in the Greater Temple (of Elemental Evil) after I killed Hedrack and his cohorts (I normally do not experience lag there anywhere near that bad in the later versions of the Circle of Eight Modpack).

    In 3.0.4, the rusty dagger is present at the lower right area of Emridy Meadows (exactly where it is in the latest version of the Co8 Modpack).

    While I was in Nulb, I noticed 2 eternally radiating outward animated ripples on the map. Then later, I noticed 3 ripples in the same area (just to the left of Otis' smithy) (the ripples are within the red circles in the first 2 screenshots below). These ripples had no adverse effect on the game.

    With only the first 2 combats in the Arena of Heroes as new content in 3.0.4, I noticed that the party's level progression throughout the game kept pace with the content - in other words, the content in the game is well-balanced with the player's characters' character levels. All of the new content and new items (that the player can buy or craft or find) in the latest version of the Co8 Modpack really does unbalance the game! The latest version of the Co8 Modpack really does need all of the new content (except for Welkwood Bog) to be made post-Zuggtmoy content - it is the only way to make the latest version of the Co8 Modpack balanced again.

    In 3.0.4, the (random encounter) assassin has only about two thirds of the Hit Points that the assassin has in the latest version of the Co8 Modpack.

    In 3.0.4, I think that Hedrack has more Hit Points than he does in the latest version of the Co8 Modpack (but I'm not certain about this).

    In 3.0.4, the Noble Salamanders are pathetically weak because all they do is make a single melee attack each - they never lob Fire Balls at the party (like they do in the latest version of the Co8 Modpack (which is what makes them SO deadly)).

    In 3.0.4, the player can take Fragarach from Prince Thrommel's inventory while he is conscious.

    In 3.0.4, many of the creatures within the Temple of Elemental Evil are not KOS (kill-on-sight). Scorpp has Wonnilon's crossbow equipped in his hand.

    The Hezrou Guardian has 545 HP in 3.0.4, whereas he has 273 HP in the latest version of the Co8 Modpack. The Hezrou Guardian was BY FAR the most difficult combat in 3.0.4 (I struggled with that combat - I had to redo it several times - mind you, I did that combat with only level 7 characters who did no item-crafting or consoling (i.e. no use of cheat codes), so I guess I was asking for it!). The combats with Hedrack, the Balor Guardian, and Zuggtmoy were all each a pushover in comparison to the insanely difficult combat with the Hezrou Guardian.

    Zuggtmoy only has 252 HP in 3.0.4 (and that is without destroying the Orb of Golden Death!). By comparison, in 3.0.4, the Balor Guardian has about 350 HP. Zuggtmoy has 601 HP in the latest version of the Co8 Modpack (if the Orb of Golden Death has been destroyed), and over 800 HP if the Orb of Golden Death hasn't been destroyed.

    Note: all of the Hit Points that I am quoting are for games where Max HP for NPCs (From Levels) and Max HP for NPCs (From HD) have both been enabled in TFE-X.

    In 3.0.4, the Hezrou Guardian needs his Hit Points reduced by about half, whereas Zuggtmoy needs her Hit Points increased by about double what they are currently.

    I have to say that the latest version of the Circle of Eight Modpack NC is FAR superior to version 3.0.4. The gameplay and variety of items and spells and monsters and modified enemy A.I. and new areas to explore are so much better than what the player can experience in version 3.0.4! Thank you Circle of Eight team for expanding and improving the computer game so much (and without the aid of having the source code either, which is no mean feat!).
     

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    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  3. Obadiah

    Obadiah Member

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    Just finished 4.01 (party of 5) and did not encounter any jerkstop. I have to say, the incarnations of the modpack just keep gettting better and better. Having just finished 2 games of 7.01, going back to 4.01 was like starting a fire by rubbing 2 sticks together instead of using a lighter. That's not meant to be an insult, the game is good. So very good over the original, there's no comparison. Anyway, I'll probably do another run on 4.01, trying all sorts of wacky stuff to see if I can get jerkstop to happen. This last run was very "normal" for my gameplay and I want to see if I can trigger it by doing things differently. Oh, I do use the clear cache on startup as well.
     
  4. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Thanks guys. No jerkstop seen in versions 3 and 4 - got it.

    @gazra -

    Lag (nodes et al) has been a feature of ToEE since vanilla and is not something Co8 added.

    I was not aware that there were two battles from AoH in 3.0.4. How did you access that?

    Hit point discrepancies between old and new modpacks are normal due to Kalshane's proto overhaul.
     
  5. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Actually (and maybe this is what gazra was saying), I was really surprised at how well lag was addressed since 4.0.1. 4.0.1 had the node-lag problem I remember from playing ToEE in the old days. I didn't have any of those problems with 7.1.0.

    Wow, and I really missed the NC...
     
  6. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    We did more or less 'fix' lag in the Fire node by removing instances of an offending particle effect that was determined to be the culprit, thanks to some nifty theorizing by Darkstorm. We have yet to do that in the Air and Earth nodes and Fire Temple and Temple level 4, so if you breezed through those lag-free it was a fluke. ;)
     
  7. gazra_1971

    gazra_1971 Knights of Legend

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    I'm well aware that lag has been a problem with the computer game ever since it was first released (which is why I was dumbfounded to not experience ANY lag in the Fire Temple or the Air Node, Earth Node, or Fire Node in 3.0.4).

    The usual way - after clearing out the moathouse, Brother Smyth's chest appears to the right of his anvil. My rogue picked the lock, and I looted the Book of Heroes. I couldn't do the third combat in the Arena of Heroes because the Master of the Arena said (via dialogue) that this is a beta version of the game. I activated the original Temple of Elemental Evil module in TFE-X before I activated The Circle of Eight Modpack 3.0.4, so I am confident that I was playing a pure version of 3.0.4 and not a hybrid/corrupt version of the game.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
  8. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Thanks.

    Okay guys, I believe that for round two we'll just ask you to play through 7.2 when it comes out (Sunday). That will feature the now hotly debated removal of pathnodes. We'll probably move on from there by tweaking 7.2 in various ways and running test versions of that, so your old modpack days are probably done. Thanks though - it's good basic information to verify when this thing 'wasn't.'
     
  9. GuardianAngel82

    GuardianAngel82 Senior Member

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    The temptation would be to work our way forward from 5.00 through 5.50 to see when jerkstop was introduced.
     
  10. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Well we already know it was in 5.5, and 5.0 was a big mess that I'd rather not get back into. There were no modpacks between the two, just innumerable 'cumulative mods and fixes' releases that would be pretty impossible to test.

    We do have a good grip on what was added during the course of the 5.x CMF era anyway (5.5 basically is the 5.x CMF compiled), and those are the things we'll be looking at.

    I just wanted to make sure that the fundamental assumption that JS was not present prior to the 5 series was correct so we're not chasing our tails.
     
  11. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Wow, this was taken out of 4.0.1. When I picked the chest I just got some loot.

     
  12. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    I believe it was added after that.

    The chest became the only place to receive the AoH quest and you get a nifty tool for your bard or high level UMD thief.
     
  13. Obadiah

    Obadiah Member

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    Ok then. Looking forward to trying out the new 7.02. I'm so excited. No matter how many times I post it, it will never be enough - you guys are awesome! What you have done for this game is immeasurable and most definately appreciated. I think I am going to try out an evil rogue party for some fun... :chainsaw:
     
  14. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Hurray for no more path nodes! For me at least this will resolve several irritating problems.

    Just a question, will it work to lay down intermediate points? I haven't tried this in a while.

    For the record, I did do a lot of long pathing with 4.0.1 while in Hommlet just to see if I could trigger any JS and wasn't able to (it did this in other places too). What I did find is that a party member would occasionally get left behind.
     
  15. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Not sure what you mean by "intermediate points" ... fewer and more widely spaced nodes? I suspect that it's the simple presence of any pathnodes at all that may have a negative impact, as even one will presumably invoke the pathing system. I suspect that it's this simple activation that may cause the issues.

    However, when I tried to duplicate the conditions last night, I noticed that the effects were not as pronounced. (This is itself typical behavior for ToEE, lol.) So I'm wondering if we should just leave the pathnodes in for the regular release and only take them out for you guys to test. What do you think?

    If we do that, we should probably try some other measure for the regular release. We pretty much need to use the playing public as a test group as well if we want to move this along swiftly, but they should be moreso a routine measures group as opposed to a longshot or unconventional measures group.
     
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