Project Delicate Rebalancement: Tales of the Wild Coast

that sounds really good Gaear. i like the idea of beefing up the temples, especially the ones on the 2nd level to make them more challenging after doing Veb. but what about the end? wont this just make you even stronger for the nodes? and ive seen talk of beefing them up some but then you are even stronger for final fight? just curious is all, im for adding more stuff to after the temple to keep the adventure going myself

 

I still disagree with you Gaear. Having the dialog inevitably lead to combat is equivalent to having them KOS, which is less, not more, intelligent. Knowing that one of the high priest was slaughtered would make the other high priests more cautious, not more hostile. It would make even more sense then for them to view whatever group that did this, and any strangers, as potentially very dangerous. They would benefit more by sending this group against the other temples first before trying to take them on themselves. Doing so would either wipe out the other temples and weaken the group, or wipe out the group and weaken the other temples. This way either the group or the other temples would be much easier to take on. You have to start thinking like a sneaky CE bastard.

 

Spot on- but having inadvised dialogue lead more easily to combat might be appropriate, if the individual temple's forces could be assembled en masse to offer muscle.

Would there be any way to script things so that once the party has finished off another elemental temple at the request of, say Air, the Air forces could appear to ambush the weakened party (as was done with the Target of revenge ambush)? This could fire if the party have already "betrayed" another element or if certain dialogue choices were used.
This would really get the sneaky vibes going and stop the party resting up and coming back for Air once they got even stronger. (Using "Air" here purely as an example).

 

I'm all for adding reinforcements to the temples if the players take that route. I'm just saying that having the temples switch to what amounts to KOS status doesn't make much sense to me. There should always be dialog paths that lead to the high priests' quests, unless the Greater Temple goes on alert. Moving the high priests to the larger areas would present a difficulty then too, since many of them have critters that are flagged to KOS already.

 

I think a happy middle ground is to replace 'inevitably ends in combat' with 'Get out of my sight or prepare to die' at the end of dialogue - even when you're working for them (or pretending as much) - to prevent the player from getting in with good flanking/fireballing positions. Scriptwise, you'd trigger dialogue with a priest (or one of his henchmen, who passes you along, similar to what's in the Moathouse with the sergeant) as soon as you move into view, and at the end of the conversation your party is teleported outside the room. There should probably also be a provision for PCs using invisibility just to get their fireball dispenser in nuking position

 

fyi - I'll reply tomorrow. I have some things to get done and, as well, also have college football to watch today and tonight.

[EDIT]
I'll even comment a suggestion to use Allyx's UberZuggytmoy. *laugh* :evil_laug

 

A few observations, if I may.

The Greater Temple encourages rivalry amongst the lesser so as to create stronger members for itself...the cream rising to the top, as it were (albeit in reverse, here). The lesser temples would most certainly try to use the party regardless of their alignment to attack the others...let's you & him fight. They would then betray the party, or further use them. Being well versed in treachery, the priests would expect it to be used & would be as ready for it as possible. If the party came in to kill straight away, it would immediately become a fight for life with no holds barred. Regardless, anyone meddling in the Temple will be found out. Rumors & evidence would exist to alert the other denizens to the fact that someone is causing trouble and/or killing inhabitiants. I don't know how to fix these things, but something should be done to address it. An alert status is very appropriate to finding out that the earthers had been decimated, or that the airheads had been wiped out. Casting a defensive buff at the mere sight of strangers isn't out of the ordinary in such circumstances. Neither is casting detect magic when a door opens all of a sudden & no one is seen walking into the room. That could be a quick end to one's invisible status, and invite a shitstorm of response from the denizens, Thieves/spies will be immediatley attacked if discovered. Not necessarily killed, mind you. Hell, even initiating dialogue (calling out "who's there?") is a minimal response that can be very effective, because it sows doubt in the mind of the trespasser as to his continued degree of stealth. Little things like this can make a huge impact on the game, and are the kinds of details that will make it harder without making it worth more XP.

 

Keep in mind that the amount of the award reduction can be tweaked. The 50% value is an arbitrary one. I though it would be a good value to start testing at. I think it could be safely lowered a bit more. We've had one run through, and a second one started, on 50%. Let's drop it to 45%, or even 40%, and see where that leaves us.

I am for moving the additions to the end of the game. I have already scoped out the changes need to not have the game end upon Zuggy's death.

I am for making monsters/NPC AIs smarter.

I am for smarter temple reactions, though what form those should take is under discussion.

I am for boosting stats of critters in the temple, as long as it does not boost the XP awarded for killing them.

I am for reducing treasure (which someone mentioned but wasn't on the list), which would by extension make crafting more difficult.

I am against artificially low CR & XP, and harder crafting (excepting doing so by reducing treasure in the game).

I am against adding new critters to the Temple. This makes it more challenging initially but also adds more XP and treasure to the game, thus starting a vicious circle.

 

I'd suggest sticking with the 50% XP awards, but moving Hickory Branch and possibly the Orc Cave to later in the game. That leaves player characters going into the Temple at a slightly lower level than in vanilla ToEE, but then gives them more reason to leave it an a chance to gain some valuable fire power before facing tougher creatures.

This is synergistic with lower XP awards. Tougher monsters faced at lower levels. The full power Zuggtmoy at the end in particular would give a more epic feeling to the end game.

I favor this, but understand concerns about the extra XP it provides. Personally I think the extra surprise and challenge inherent in facing a monster when you're not buffed, positioned and ready is worth it.

Love to see it, no idea how to do it.

Do this in concert with the reduced XP and it will do quite a bit to make Temple Levels 1&2 tougher. Personally, I'd say that Allyx's idea is a great starting point. Maybe Tillahi on level two could ask for an escort to Verbobonc. You have to fight past a good chunk of the level to get to her. Then, when you get there, you have access to the initial Verbo adventures, with the Viscount and (for Evil parties) the Scarlet Brotherhood given the ability to point you back to the Moathouse Respawn, Orc Cave, and Hickory Branch?

 

Well, if you're already in the Temple, chances are you're going to encounter the Fire Temple's Ogre quest, so I don't think moving the orc cave until later in the game is going to work. It was envisioned as an early game event.

While I realize making monsters more powerful raises XP, if we do it late enough in the game, it doesn't matter much. The main problems are levels 1 and 2 of the Temple are a cake walk at the moment. (I don't quite agree with that assessment. The two huge fights in the rooms south of the bone room on level 1 are pretty tough, as is the fight with the salamanders in the fire temple and at times the fight in the water temple.). Honestly, I think the only fight that's really too easy is that the priests are too easy to kill. While easily mowing through enemies can be monotonous, having fight after fight be nearly over-whelming is also tedious. The characters should get the occaisional chance to show off their chops, be it against ghouls or goblins (and if monsters are seriously outclassed, the game doesn't award any XP anyway.)

So boost the priests and the assorted commanders on levels 1 and 2. It will make things tougher, and yes, while it will give a bit more XP, if we also boost the priests and commanders on the next level down, it won't matter.

One tactic we should look into adding, that I think will make a huge difference in the difficulty of the game, is having enemies capable of casting Dispel Magic do so. One of the main reasons the game is easy is because the player can go "There's a big fight coming, better buff up." If enemies start using Dispels, that will cut down on that advantage a lot. I'm kind of hesitant to do it to the Salamanders in the Temple, since that fight's pretty tough already, but it will certainly up the difficulty of the game.

 

I agree with this, and I'd add that the lack of spell casting foes is part of what makes many of the fights on levels 1&2 of the temple too easy. Even the priests don't seem to do much other than some minimal self buffing before getting killed. A few Charm Person throwing Orc Shamans could make a significant difference.

 

Yeah, I've never understood why the priest-types always spend the first two rounds buffing when they rarely last more than two rounds. It's great for huge battles, where there's a bunch of guys to benefit from their buffs, but in small battles it just means the priest dies pointlessly (same with the Bugbears and their potions of Bulls Strength).

I wonder if there is a way to make the game check and see if the party is buffed before casting a Dispel. I'd hate to see it be another wasted action, like the self-buffing.