Project Delicate Rebalancement: Tales of the Wild Coast

I'm with OB and Ted on keeping things as close to 3.5 as possible (there's a big surprise) so the arbitrary decrease of CRs/awards and changing the crafting rules doesn't sit well with me. I'm not thrilled with further reducing the in-game XP awards, but I think it's a much fairer option.

As OB said, the PNP rules that as long as a wizard has a spell component pouch, they can cast any spell with a material component that costs less than 1gp. (In ToEE, Troika has set it to anything less the 99gp. We could certainly fix that to be closer to the rules.)

However, I'm not sure what purpose making players find higher-priced components would serve. The game already subtracts gold for use of those spells. And as OB said, forcing a player to find a component every time he wants to cast a given spell is a huge kick in the nuts for a sorcerer, since their whole gig is limited spells known, crap-load of castings per day. It would make any spell with a high-priced component pretty much a really bad choice for a sorcerer to take. Sorcerer players are already punished in that crafting, which is a big part of ToEE, is a lot harder for them to do due to lack of bonus feats and their limited spells known greatly restricting what they can craft.

Now, for a constructive suggestion:

On the other thread, a poster mentioned that the Traders are a problem issue (and have been since the initial game release.) They're real easy to beat (less so after Liv's tinkering) and give a crapload of XP. Some thoughts on how this can be fixed:

1) Give them some stat boosts. Their stats are pretty crappy by 3.5 standards. Also, trade the magic chainmail one of them wears (and which seriously hampers thief skills) for a magic chainshirt of the same plus value.

2) Have them take the fight outside. There is no room to manuever inside their shop, and generally a player that's going to attack them is going to position their PCs in the most advantageous position possible before initiating the fight. It's kind of cheesy, but when a player picks a fight maybe we could teleport everyone into the stable with dialogue to the effect of "You want a fight, fine, but I'm not letting you get your blood all over my clean shop." This gives them both room to manuever and flank so they can get their sneak attacks in. This might break Liv's scripting though, I'm not sure. We don't want to do that.

Also, turn their courier into a decent-level rogue and have him jump into the fray from hiding.

3) Give Raimol a boost. Right now he really, really sucks. Let's make him into a threat instead of a joke. In addition, do something similar to what Liv did with Spunigoir and have Raimol turn on the party if they've recruited him and then attack his bosses.

Of course, I can't script, so I don't know how hard any of this would be. But I'm willing to do the actual boosting of the Traders, courier, Raimol, etc if folks think this is a good idea. Thoughts?

 

I agree with all save the "take it outside" option, mostly for story reasons. The traders are spies; they might slander the PCs, or send assassins after them. They might even lose their tempers and attack directly, though only if goaded. However, their goal isn't to beat up the PCs in any kind of fair fight; it's to get out of town before Burne picks them up, then take revenge on the bastards that revealed their treachery. That revenge is their kind of fight, an ambush with a tough group of mixed mercenaries to back them up.

I like Liv's choice to have them use Dust of Disappearance to flee; I'd keep that as is, but give the Traders a DEX, CON and HP boost to give them more of a chance to use it before the PCs can kill them. I'd also suggest a new dialog tree after the PCs report the Traders activities to Burne. Something like:

Rannos: You've cost me years of work. I won't forget that. Not at all.

R1: Tell it to the Badgers, Davl. (exit) (Rannos and Gremag fade) (add Target of Revenge reputation)

R2 (if Bluff is Greater Than 9): You know what happens when they hang a man, Davl? For a thin man, it's a merciful death. It's quick, and some men enjoy it. Now a fat man, he won't enjoy it. Too much weight. A fat man's head will pop right off. Blood everywhere. Very messy. You almost feel sorry for the hangman. Still, the crowd likes it. You think Burne will hang you, Davl? (exit) (Rannos and Gremag attack)

We could also do a dialog tree after the assassination attempt that ends either in Rannos and Gremag fleeing or attacking, depending on the characters skills.

Thoughts?

 

Put me in with these guys as for:

Lower experience across the board;
Beefing up certain encounters;
Move Tales towards the end.

This is only the early stage of things anyway, and they leave options for later. I would also like to jump in as opposed to requiring the finding of components unless it's part of a mod or quest. Besides, once you've killed a spellcaster & looted his stash, you'd have everything needed to cast (at least) the spells s/he could cast. And, at least one room in the Temple served as storage for things of this nature (along with a weird "joke" monster, too). Actually, that could be the milestone people need to cast certain spells - you can't cast spells X, Y, & Z until Falrinth is dead - that kind of thing...if you really wanted to. Seems like a hassle to me...

Beefing up 1:

Air Node - Module says 3 white dragons, but I'd go with blue ones, here, since we've got white elsewhere. And electricity is perfect for air, in my book. This encounter was designed to be a family, making it tougher due to mate & offspring rules for dragons, but if we go with a mated pair of Blues, it should be tough enough. {HD 8,9; HP 40,45}

Earth Node - 1 Dracolisk & 2 Black Dragons {HD 7, HP 35 each} You could just make it 3, I suppose (since there's no dracolisk mod), but stick with these sizes.

Water Node - 2 Dragon Turtles {OMG!} these were replaced by the Ice Lizards, which were transformed by Allyx into the white dragon. No messing needed here, I guess.

Fire Node - 2 Red Dragons {HD 10, HP 60 each} 'Nuff said.


Beefing up 2:

Taking it out back is perfect!

Groom (courier/spy) = Lvl-0 fighter, no stats...make this guy a rogue of Lvl-3, or something like that, especially if he's going to help mix it up in the stables. Make dialogue changes that will keep him from getting killed before this big fight. He should disappear sooner from any initial encounter with the party.

Raimol = Lvl-1 Fighter, no stats...go with 2 or even 3 to give him some weapon feats; or simply give him 1 of barbarian so he can rage. I hear that will toughen you up quite a bit! (*cough...orcs...cough*) He needs to live long enough so that either Rannos or Gremag can be assured of escape.

Rannos = Lvl-10 Thief (Rogue) HP-48
S-8 / I-14 / W-9 / D-18 / Co-15 / Ch-7
+1 Leather Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, Amulet of Proof Against Detection & Location, +1 Dagger, +1 Short Sword.

Gremag = Lvl-7 Assassin (what is he here?) HP-39
S-15 / I-12 / W-7 / D-18 / Co-15 / Ch-7
Dagger of Venom (3 doses of poison remaining), Dust of Disappearance (3 Pinches), Chain Mail Shirt +3 (!!!).


Beefing up 3

Zuggtmoy unfettered. See how she works out.


Stats & items are from the module; suggestions are, of course, simply that.

 

I'm all for them still fleeing, which is why I said we don't want to break Liv's script to do this. But at least this way they can get a few good licks in before running away and maybe even survive long enough to do so in some cases. In fact, if we could alter Liv's script somewhat, it would actually make more sense for them to use the Dust right away because it would give them a huge advantage in the combat (sneak attack anyone that doesn't have Uncanny Dodge without having to flank, plus 50% miss chance.) Then once they get into the danger zone (I'm not sure what percentage of HP Liv set them to run at) they flee.

@Spike: What age categories were the dragons in the original module? Dragons got a lot tougher in 3.x and it would probably be more in tune with the challenge of the original module to use the same age dragons (approximately. I believe 1st ed used a combination of age and size, whereas in 2nd and 3rd ed there's simply 12 age categories and the size increases as the dragon ages), instead of the same HD dragons. I'm all for adding more dragons, though and it seems most of the non-modding players are anxious for more dragon fights.

In ToEE he's just a level 7 Rogue. Interesting the original module mentions a chain shirt, but Troika opted to give him chainmail+3 instead. Definitely something to fix.

What was the difference between Assassins and regular thieves in 1st ed?

It's a shame we don't know how to make baddies use their daggers of venom to poison people. That would make this fight a whole lot nastier.

 

I see why we, as modders and gamers, want the Traders to fight. Fighting is fun. The Traders, as characters, have no reason to fight fair even "out back" if the PCs don't have the skills to goad them into it. If the Traders still have cool heads, their goal should be to get out and kill the characters later, when the odds favor them.

 

ahem, if you recall from this thread, I've been working on the traders' scenario lately. I'm about 30-40% done (with the things I mentioned in that thread, plus a little more) and I would appreciate if you didn't change the traders drastically while I'm still working on them myself. Re-stating is fine by me, but more elaborate scripting could interfere with what I had in mind... oh, and specifically for the stonemason, he gets killed in my scenario by perfidious badgers working for Rannos and Gremag.

 

From the other thread ...

 

Yes, that would be a good fix to toughen up the fight with the traders. Is there some way to spawn them upon intiation of combat, where they would come running in from a back room to flank characters that were positioned out of the front line? Maybe the dialogue line calling for help from their man-at-arms could trigger the appearance of those two in the back room next to a door.

 

I have downloaded CtB's Xp reducer mod and will let ya know how it goes. Might take a day or 2 but I will start a new game tonight using it.

 

I'm not sure but I think its something in Zuggy's script that triggers the end slides, I was looking into it a while ago for the possiblity off adding more slides. I'll have to start looking again.

 

I'm still running 5.0, and don't intend to update the cumulative fixes any longer until version six, but didn't 5.2 eliminate the "free +3 armor" bug? I took advantage of that one once :blush: , and it's elimination solves a balance issue.

Another issue that could be resolved within the existing mods is to reduce some of the plethora of magic treasure available in Verbobonc, and in other areas. Taking away the staffs from the two drow wizards and replacing them with a couple of scrolls each that they would use up before dying would allow them to retain the same offensive capabilities against the party without unduly increasings the party's offensive capabilities after looting them.

Perhaps another way to reduce the amount of artificial buffing of the party would be to make the bugbears potions similar to their weapons were you cannot loot them, so that a party doesn't end up with dozens of healing potions. THis would cause the cleric to expens spells in healing instead of offensively, reducing offensive spell capacity and toughening up the encounters by reducing the force that the party could bring to bear against each encounter. If you can't cast hold person because you need to consider saving that spell to use as a cure wounds, the encounter won't be as easy.

You can also make the encounters tougher by altering the stats of the characters involved. Instead of equiping the enemies with masterwork weapons, or enchanted ones, bump up the strength by a couple points to give the antagonist a bonus to hit and damage that makes them a more dangerous foe, isn't lootable when they are defeated, and shouldn't increase the experience award for beating them. eace:

 

Blue, Black = all "Adult" (5 HP / die)
Red = Old (6 HP / die)

To be brief, they have a slightly better choice of armor & weapons, posses the ability to spy, and may kill an opponent outright if they make their chance at assassination on a successful surprise backstab. Otherwise, they have the same abilities as thieves, but at a penalty of two levels (7th level assassin can open locks, etc. like a 5th level thief)...except for backstabbing, which stays at the same level. Smigmal is one, too...he he.

The dagger injects poison stored in the hilt on a "to hit" roll of natural 20. The target must then save vs. poison or die. 6 doses may be carried thus. Maybe it can be fixed?