Premade 'Toffee' Pro Modules Discussion

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Cerulean the Blue, Sep 2, 2005.

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  1. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    I still haven't tryed the shop map, I like the idea but I havn't started using Toffee yet either... I like my cave. maybe one day (soon).
     
    Cujo, Sep 9, 2005
    #31
  2. Agetian

    Agetian Attorney General Administrator

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    You *have* to use the Pro version to run these mod packages. The mod packages will show up in the simple edition as well, but it's a side effect from the part of the code being shared between the simple and pro editions. The mod packages are NOT designed to run on the simple edition and will NOT run on it.

    The Pro edition is installed in exactly the same way as the Simple edition (just install to your ToEE folder).

    - Agetian
     
    Agetian, Sep 9, 2005
    #32
  3. bradrinwi

    bradrinwi Established Member

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    hmm good point and i do like the choices..shop v2 mod gives... most of my chars wont be weapon focused.. and if i have to click an extra time or two to buy clothes id rather do that. ... than trash it completly...


    sorry Allyx guess it was a bit like going up to ceazanne "nice painting can you do the background in blue.."
     
    bradrinwi, Sep 9, 2005
    #33
  4. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    Allyx, I was thinking of using the first heartbeat with an invisible NPC, ala Give_Level_Three from the ToEEWB Tutorial, placed very close to the start point on the map. This could be scripted to do the weapon and money adjustments then destroy itself (much like a spawner). That way people won't think "What happened to my sword and gold?" when they talk to the traders. It will also eliminate the need for a global flag (I'm with Ted in that I hate to use them if I don't have to).

    I too agree that you should be able to keep weapons you spend feats on at the start. They way your script is now, you can keep any of them execpt for longswords and scimitars. I have already done the modifications to the script so that you keep longswords and scimitars if you have Weapon Focus in them. I will share it if you like.

    I disagree with Agetian about the clothes. It makes no sense that whoever trained you in your various class made you leave naked. "Oh, by the way, you can keep that weapon you spent all that time practicing with, but you have to leave your clothes, even the ones you showed up here wearing."

    Edit: I have already made these changes to my install. I was just thinking that since this mod should definately be part of all mods from now on, and any future Co8 mod pack, it is worth considering making these changes to the release.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2005
    Cerulean the Blue, Sep 10, 2005
    #34
  5. Agetian

    Agetian Attorney General Administrator

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    You make a good point, Cerulean, but things here have to be done with care: if all the warriors get a sword and all the druids get a scimitar, why don't everyone else deserve to get something? Did barbarians practice all the time with just bare hands? Balance, balance, balance :)

    Also, about clothes: I'd say that in case of a shop map mod (where initial shopping should make sense), it'll be more worthwhile to give the characters an initial garb or something (not a valuable thing... of course, it's understandable that a warrior could have well been practicing with or just had in his possession a full plate +3, but that may contradict the module's rules for initial state.

    So, everything above makes a good point, but it has to be implemented with balance in mind. For example, in my PnP D&D games I rarely give the players initial stuff (at least for low-level modules, like ToEE), and I allow them to buy their own starting equipment from a list. For higher level modules it's wise to give some more powerful (+1/+2) stuff or at least allow it to be bought (give the sum of money big enough to purchase it all). Of course, it doesn't mean that I ever say to my party "You're standing in a shop, all the way naked, trying to decide what weaponry and armor to buy" :D It kind of automatically suggests that everyone has something very basic (like, standard work clothes, a farmer's garb, or whatever else). That's what I'm talking about.
    Hope that makes sense.

    - Agetian
     
    Agetian, Sep 10, 2005
    #35
  6. Shiningted

    Shiningted I changed this damn title, finally! Administrator

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    Allyx's 'brown farmer garb' seems reasonable.
     
    Shiningted, Sep 10, 2005
    #36
  7. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    @ Cerulean, If you can post the spawner you made (either you or) I can make the changes to the mod pack.

    @ Everyone else, So what Is acceptable? Give all characters farmers garb and take the script that gives weapons to those who take weapon focus or exotic weapon proficiency from pc_start.py?

    Also I think it's a great idea to have the shop map included in future releases (gives it more of a P&P feel to the game) once all the kinks are ironed out, I'd also like to see it made compatable with previous mod sets, What d'ya think guy's?
     
    Allyx, Sep 10, 2005
    #37
  8. Old Book

    Old Book Established Member

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    For myself, I love the shop map. I'd rather see everyone start in farmer's garb, and with the weapons that they've spent feats for.
     
    Old Book, Sep 10, 2005
    #38
  9. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    Customise the shop map you say?

    Alter MY mod, to make YOU happy you say?

    Oh, Ok then.

    1 file disables the free weapon you get when you take a weapon focus (for the rules lawyers who say it's cheating to have them) ,

    The other gives all characters brown farmers garb (for those that get embarrased by naked people).
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 10, 2005
    Allyx, Sep 10, 2005
    #39
  10. bradrinwi

    bradrinwi Established Member

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    umm i just notepaded the files .. i think youve switched the names of the zip files up.. no weapons has the brown garb for all (6142) fix and clothes.zip has the strip all weapons fix


    btw thanks for the revision it defiently should be part of the next fan fixes gives a much more pnp look and feel to the game..
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2005
    bradrinwi, Sep 10, 2005
    #40
  11. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    A few thoughts . . .

    If we assume that a PC who has trained (has feats) in a certain area will carry the appropriate weapon from the get-go, why shouldn't they also come equippped with armor?

    But, if the purpose of the shop map in the first place is to customize your character the way you see fit, and not to satisfy role-playing aspects (like not being naked in public), then I think they should start off with nothing at all.

    If we want to give some measure of satisfaction to both aspects (roleplaying and customizability), then I think they should start off with some type of middling clothing other than farmer's garb. Farmer's garb suggests peasant-status. Plus, what if your PCs aren't farmers? Additionally, I say start them with no weapons or armor. It's not a stretch to think that the training guild (or wherever you just left from) didn't send you directly into battle.

    Allyx - your shop map isn't neccesarily supposed to be located right in the area of the opening vignettes, is it, story-wise? I thought it was more of an undefined prologue to any adventurer's beginning. If that's the case, then it seems to me that the only aspect that needs to be satisfied is not being naked in the shop.
     
    Gaear, Sep 10, 2005
    #41
  12. Old Book

    Old Book Established Member

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    If you are naked in the shop, shouldn't you get a discount based on your CHA bonus? Or should that be with shopkeepers of the applicable orientation only?
     
    Old Book, Sep 10, 2005
    #42
  13. bradrinwi

    bradrinwi Established Member

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    re gaear: I understand your point and yes PnP d&D assumed nothing unless you used the optional tables and rolled for possible inheritance or simalar tables in AD&D 1st ed DMG

    however...historically and logically every weapon is differnt every knife sword etc.. I use knives daily.. for most of each day.. each one even of the same make model forged the same day.. has a slight varience in weight no matter how good the quality control (and the same scientific equip wasnt around to measure exact weight nor a rockwell hardness scale.. so variance was a Big deal) anything not absolutly brand new and even then there a slight "feel" variations.

    the wear on each is different the exact pressure with each re sharpening etc....

    i can blindfolded pick up and tell eachof my knives and and which specificlly it is from any other or anyone elses...and Im more profecient(chop.. de bone etc.. )faster and easier... with em because of that familiarity
    my hand knows them
    a warrior from all we know of training.historiclly and fantasy/historiclly. or an archer.. its logical to believe at some point .. in training owns his sword bow axe...... he almost has to .a knight(historiclly speaking) was requiered to own his own horse and spurs and sword...... to learn it as well as weapon focus or finesse suggest.. or even for the purpose of being reflexive instinctive*the role of such intense training) in his moves attacks and repostes... armour maybe not maybe thats borrowed or loaned.. ive done sca and ren fight stuff and gambazons and leather armour /chain does have different weights etc..but .. the impact as long as the armour fits well isnt great from one leather armour to another suit.of leather armour..i couldnt close my eyes and know which suit i was wearing..

    so it does make sense to have your weapon of choice.. you probably took out a loan from the guild to get it as a kid and .. are going to be paying them back until your 5th lvl or suddeny rich... or you took the practice sword youve been using thru training..
    if your guild doesnt have a loan/interest banking program...
    but armour .. fitted to you.. probably wasnt handed out with matching ties and hankies..

    so i think the mod makes sense as it now appears.. but .. thats only my opinion
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2005
    bradrinwi, Sep 10, 2005
    #43
  14. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    I don't really have a preference which way we go as far as the weapon thing is concerned, as long as we have a concensus and it is consistent, i.e. either no weapons at the start or you get to keep the longsword or scimitar you took a weapon focus for. I do think there should be some clothes at the start. How about ragged clothing? It has the least resale value but leaves the PCs wearing something. We could even change the protos to give it no resale value.

    Allyx - I will put together an upload with the spawner sometime today. Is the mob file, the scripting and a proto.tab enough?
     
    Cerulean the Blue, Sep 10, 2005
    #44
  15. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    Re: Premade 'Toffee' 3 Pro modules

    I can understand the "ballance" gripes about the "I get a weapon free if I specialise in a weapon", so I proided the fix above.

    I also provided a fix for the "hey I'm naked" gripe, but I really don't understand what the problem is, I didn't see the point of giving people clothes, when chances are your going to dump the clothes as soon as you've bought armour anyway.

    Yeah it should be all you need.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2005
    Allyx, Sep 10, 2005
    #45
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