Paladins

I agree with this line of thinking; characters like Natty Bumpo, Uncas & Chingachgook wouldn't be evil, but someone who slaughters buffalo solely for their tongues would be. Hunting & harvesting isn't a bad thing; it helps preserve the balance and is our heritage as a part of the nature of life. And gaining income for your skills isn't bad, either. But the abuses come with the love of money. I s'pose saying "sheer profit" (or some such thing) would have made my point more clear.

|
|
|
V

Troika were the DM's in this plot line. It was their call. Many disagree, but in the end, that doesn't matter because what the DM says, goes. I guess we'll see if the Shining one can improve upon it or not.

 

I would say killing the animals just cos they were there would be pretty bad, you don't get many "druids for the calous slaughter of wild animals while laughing manicly" clubs

 

As far as the druid/ ranger part, if it is simple husbandry, then it their duty. But paladins are very hard because they must walk the 'straight and narow'. I think this is the main reason they were given such extreme standards ( min. starting ability scores) in AD&D., and why some races were prohibted or limited in the class.
Ted, I say it's your call in your campaign. Sorry if this doesn't help you gain concensus. But if others don't like how you handle it then, they don't have to play your mod. I, for one, will. Even if I don't agree with everything you've done. (punctuation sucks)

 

well ted like i said before i agree with the fallen paladin idea as long as he has a way to get back in good standings. i personally think the paladin should only be defrocked from his own actions not those of others but thats just me. as to the druid i just dont see being able to make that one work in the game with the new druids.

 

Hi all:

I believe a Paladin should fall if he agrees to a blessing from an evil god. An evil god would not offer a blessing unless the task at hand was in some way evil, or leading to evil.(evil intentions) A Paladin is granted many bonuses because of his belief and faith, for example; Auora of Courage, he inspires all around to almost ignore fear because he is fearless due to his faith in his god, not because he is big, strong, has shiny armor or carries a big sword, if that were the case a fighter would have the same ability. A Paladin inherintly knows good from evil and should realize an evil god is well........EVIL.

Just my opinion mind you

 

Hi, I read this thread a while ago and agree with most of it about how Paladins should conduct themselves with regards to good versus evil. However, I came upon something the other day that asks the question on how a Paladin would act with regards to law versus chaos with some helpings of grey and I just wasn't sure what a Paladin would do.

So anyway, my question is (and I've taken it to the extreme so there can be defined in black and white, which is how Paladins should work..): say a Paladin is traveling with a group or by himself across the land. Where he comes from, the laws are quite fair. Say a petty theft is committed and the one resposible is captured and tried. For such a minor theft and because its their first time they get off light, say a slap on the wrist or some community service. However, the laws of the land in which the Paladin is currently in are much more harsh. Theft is always punished by cutting off the hands of the perpetrator, no matter how petty or for whatever reason (or maybe something harsher like execution, if you like, but most likely that would be seen as lawful evil). The Paladin witnesses the minor crime of a ragged and poor woman stealing a laof of bread, he tracks her down and discoveres it is to feed her starving child. Does he turn her in or let her go? Would letting her go cause him to fall? Or if he turned her in, would he try to defend her from such a harsh punishment? If that punishment is still to be handed out, no matter how hard the Paladin argued, would he try a jail-break? Would that cause him to fall too?

 

That's a good one Riden, tough question to answer without having some doubts either way. But then, that what makes being a paladin so difficult.
My opinion is that s/he would turn the offender in, since this is the "lawful" thing to do. But would also defend them rigorously in court, if this was an option ( outsider defense atty,or a trial at all), seeking a less severe punishment. This would be the "good" thing to do. Failing this, s/he would help the woman's family to become more self sufficient in the absence of her ability to work and what-not, this is the compassionate thing to do.
Respect for the law extends beyond the laws you are used to. Especially when travelling to foreign lands. The paladin would almost certainly try to change the harsh punishment in this case, but would be bound by it until it did change. S/He would probably be wracked with guilt for a long time if any harm came to the woman or family due to this, but the law is the law, like or not.

 

The answer is that the Paladin must adhere to their code. There are such things as unjust laws, and in order for "justice" to even exist, there must be a thing called "mercy" also. What was described in the bread theft scenario above must be played out, so to speak, to a just end. Take the woman & child to lawful authority & let them handle it; feeding them from his own supplies if need be along the way. If turning them over means injustice, then it would definetly be resisted within the scope of the law.

A short answer for a coplex situation, and I've left off much more than I've said, but...I think this is it (IMO) in a nutshell.

 

Just me, other's opinions may vary.

I think such harsh penalties as mentioned in that example, applied without the consideration of mitigating circumstances, would be indicative of a lawful evil society, and helping to enforce them would violate a paladin's lawful good code.

In my opinion a true and virtuous paladin would consider such a lawful evil society to be a perversion of the correct (to him, and per his code) application of the principles of law. Paladins follow a lawful good ethos, law isn't any more important to him than good is, and vice versa.

It is the duty of a paladin to oppose the perversion of law into evil just as it is his duty to uphold the good and virtuous application of the law.

Paladins must by nature be opposed to chaos, and to evil. The laws of the Scarlet brotherhood or the Horned Society would not dictate a padain's actions, and no true paladin would consider himself bound by such a court.

 

Consider that this is not the womans first offense, and that she has already been given leniency due to her family's grave circumstances. She, and others of her clan, are known to be unrepentant thieves who do not desire to earn their way honorably. what then does the paladin do? The law may seem unjust at first glance, but may be tempered by mercy. Even the RL example from the mid-east was so.
A true paladin would not let himself be used in such a way that a lazy person would be allowed to continue stealing. This would be neither lawful, nor good. Do not be fooled by the superficial appearance of an old woman against a harsh society. Better to learn why such a harsh punishment came into being here. Remember, in this scenario the pally is in a foreign land, where there may be good reason to treat criminals in this way. Also, "good" may be percieved differently in this new land. In general, it is whatever is beneficient to the society as a whole. Different societies have different needs.

 

I think we're all in agreement about these things. Good isn't necessarily stupid, and there would be a reckoning if she's beaten the system before (although it might take a while...) or if there is laziness/thievery as a history, there. Bottom line is it has to be put into a system that the (large) majority of players think is fair. Every player isn't going to like every decision made by the programmers or modders; but as long as it is reasonable (and by that, I mean it can be backed up with sound reasoning) most people should find it acceptable.

Players, however, are not most people...eace:

 

Most definitely, I've bowed to DM judgement many times myself ( grudgingly, of course). Plus, Such severe punishment as dismembering anybody for anything, would be abhorent to the paladin. But, in some extreme circumstance, he may be forced to let it happen. Well I guess "let" isn't the right term here. He may not be able to stop it without violating his code. In, as I said, some extreme circumstance.

 

I think some of you guys need to read the Exalted Deeds book. It gave me (and my DM, thankfully ) a new perspective on how to play my paladin.

--Just happened upon the thread while searching for the words "paladin" and "mount," thought I'd stir up the debate some more.