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Discussion in 'General Modification' started by 0rion79, Sep 30, 2005.
sanity from the newbie.. something about out of the mouths of babes..
I have played Orion's mod some. I will have more time in the next 2 or 3 weekends.
Thanks for the feedback on the Grove, it wasn't even doing anything for someone else who posted.
I don't know what to make of this mod - lots of good ideas but bundled with (among other things) Orion's traditional tendency to post without testing; or at least without testing everytihng (certainly some bits would have been tested extensively to demonstrate the problems in the first place, won't deny he goes the whole hog when he gets his teeth into something).
Easiest thing, imho, is anyone who is interested pick out the good ideas, of which there are many, and just redo them. May sound harsh, but a flawed mod that the author is not here to support, well thats a pain. Maybe we should go by category: once Allyx is back online, perhaps he might like to have a look at the saving throws etc the way he doid with the hit dice. Or perhaps he is busy, not foisting it on him, just suggesting people who are interested in this or that thing might like to take a look. One of our weapons modders might like to tackle the weapons issues.
Again, it sounds harsh, but has anyone got the time to just go through and make sure this all works? I know I don't. If you do, well, great
Question: Is the "good" stuff in Orion's mod simply stuff that is sort of neat, or is it stuff that we really should have? If the latter, then first things last - somebody's gotta make the thing stable before it can be tested.
Understand that I'm really, really dubious about releasing some hidden easter egg CTDs in an official Co8 release. -_-
Nothing but the truth, as disparaging as it may seem from time to time. This is a situation he created. All anyone has asked is for is respect: for the game, the community & the work others have done and are doing. He does what he likes, and others have to clean up the mess. Nice. He should get his stuff straight (at least as much as possible) before he uploads it for general consumption; if he needs advice or assistance, well, there never has been a shortage of that here. I don't know a single person on this forum who came here knowing all about ToEE modding; many of the famed modders here still get it wrong now & again...but they help each other out to make the best possible 'product' for those choosing to use it. That's just not the case with Orion, and it never has been.
You should read all of the posts, not just the ones from people you agree with. This has all been said before, and in this very thread, no less.
Spike i have read ALL the post so far in this forum and as the subjected had wondered off a bit(i take responsiblity for my part in the non linear side venture.) i was appluading the return to ToEE issues as much as his suggesting the possiblity of a glass maybe being half full rather than half empty approach.
but do not think i did not hear..(read is more accurate) Ted amoung others say early on they would look at it and advocate some portions inclusion in some fashion..in some future co8 release because some of the stuff had merit..etc..
Getting the saving throws, skills, classes etc correct according to the rules isn't really something the overall majority of people would notice, any more than they notice the HD changes, but its something that should be done if it can be, its not just a pleasant add-on.
Otherwise I guarantee some day, someone is going to try to add a specific monster according to the rules, have it go haywire (according to the internal ToEE logic) and spend an unnecessary amount of time pulling their hair out trying to get it to work because they are going by what is already there, and what is already there ain't right in many cases.
Yes you can, try FIXING STUFF THAT NEEDS FIXING without ADDING CRAP THAT NO-ONE WANTS!!!
I have examined the changes Orion made. IMHO, as a game balance guru and nitpicker, the following are the important (and rule-accurate) modifications that should stay in, or be incorporated in the next Co8 mod package.
--Skill point recalculations.
--Saving throw recalculations.
--Change of humanoid monster bonus HD to character class levels... though in most situations, the assigned class should be an NPC class such as warrior, expert, or adept.
--Replacement of missing feats for animals and monsters, especially Weapon Finesse for high Dexterity animals.
--Recalculation of base statistics for monsters with character classes (average joes should be either 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 or 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8... BUT all official D&D material has long insisted that NPCs and monsters with PC character class levels should use the "elite array" of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8).
--Recalculation of skill points and feats for humanoid NPCs. Many seemed to be lacking the extra stat points normally gained at level multiples of 4, as well.
--Ensuring that magical weapons always ignore "x/magic" damage reduction, no matter what kind of strange artifact they may be (*cough*finalwordswords*cough*).
--Summoned fiendish and celestial creatures, especially the Lantern Archon, needed repairs badly, as did many monster attacks (for instance, elemental slams at same attack bonus, monsters gaining full Strength damage bonus on secondary attacks, etc.).
If no one else can help winnow out these changes, I *sigh* might volunteer. But don't tell my wife. :ninja:
"Yes, we'd like the Special Heavy Beam Cannon, please."
I found the cause of the CTD in the grove, the apprentices "shop" is all screwed up, I'll fix it - just gimme a little while, then I'll re-enable the toffee version.
Are there any other issues that need fixing?
If you installed Orions mod manually, you'll need to...
1. Put Shiningted's dlg (posted earlier in this thread) file into your data/dlg file.
2. Find the file... modules/toee/maps/map1-int24-the-grove ...and delete it (the contents are the cause of the CTD).
3. Extract the file zipped bellow in it's place (modules/toee/maps/...)
4. Clear the map cache, and play.
I've re-uploaded the toffee version, to include these fixes.
You're of course welcome to have a look at the changes 0rion79 made, but you'd better check with Allyx first, since he's been busy with 0rion's stuff too lately.
Yesterday, I e-mailed 0rion79, informing him of the problems, that are present in his mod, here is his reply...
I recieved his fixed files for his mod which are an incompatable file type for attaching here, I've not tested them yet, but If you want them let me know here, and I'll find anotherway to link them.
Missing feats is dangerous ground, since we have no basis to decide what they should be, and opinions will vary.
Too weak for whom?
I see no reason to change ability scores to use Elite rolls. The most correct would be using 3d6 + race modifiers to every creature, and thus keeping what the original game had would be most in spirit with the game imho.
Also an excellent fix based on 3.5 rules.
Did you change the stats on the Hydra to a cryo-Hydra based on the color of the creature?
Also, on the skeletal priest change, I have no problem with it either way.
Why? aside from the original ToEE descriptions, but I for one would accept the original game designers views on this over a fan based mod. Especially with the adage "if it isn't broken, don't fix it".
Again changes for no reason other than to change things.
All in all, I see some of these changes as wonderful fixes of rule issues (That I would appreciate in a new Co8 patch), but most of them as unnecessary.
How about splitting this into two mods? One for core 3.5 compliance (and roll those into the standard install), and one for optional changes.
I'm with Orion79 on the Elite template. It seems to fit the 3.5 rules better. Anyway, Livonya's mod already goes further than that with boss types, so this would be reducing the difficulty back to 3.5 standard, for better or worse.