Orion's ToEE complete fixes - beta (part A)

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by 0rion79, Sep 30, 2005.

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  1. 0rion79

    0rion79 Established Member

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    This is gonna be a long post....

    It is me who's sorry. Sorry because I worked almost without interructions to my mod for one week and more, checking every line of the protos and fixing things that people in the past asked to be fixed and preparing it as a base for further development, since I almost completely abstained to apply changes based on my own ideas and personal changes that may alter the game spirit (do you remember the alternative NPCs protos? nothing like that) to listen such nonsense like this only for an animation, an abstract concept, like if it was the only change that I did.
    Many of you are trying to "climb on mirrors" as we say in italy (almost impossible since mirrors are flat) to find the most fantastic explanations for a thinking skeleton but I see D&D in a different way. I see it as a result of complex rules and changing them too much may cause severe unbalancements. Now, the skeletal proved to be well balanced but, as much as I try, every explanation that creates an exception sounds too weak for me to explain why a creature that is created to be an obbedient, mindless slave for its master should be different. That's why I changed it and I proposed it to you.
    Co8 is a private forum where modders are expected to cooperate as a team. Since we can't join in front of a table with pizza, coca-cola and pen and paper to debate about the next mod and the further developments, the only way left to share ideas is to share them already ready, as I did. Trust me, if Liv was still reading the forum, I would have asked her authorization before proceding, but since she is not here, I used rules and I trusted my good taste to improve her idea and change something of it that I deeplpy belive wrong. If we put a copyright on other people's works, then it is the end of game developments since it is known that the best ideas come while acting and it is necessary to go further and to revise what already done at the same time. More, as I told more than once, I don't care if you further change my mod if the changes are done wisely, so no problem if, when Liv is back or when somebody makes te next mod, he/she changes 2 values in the protos to restore the priest animation and portrait, maybe writing some line to explain why the skeletal priest is a skeleton that mantains his intellige and wisdom. Honestly, instead I would be happy to know that somebody of you had used or changed my mod for further development, since we are a community, every single person cannot think to everything alone and will never have all the good ideas. Every mod should be a brik of something bigger, not a stand-alone, immutable set with a virtual copyright on it!
    Is it so difficult to say "ok, give it a try and see how it is and, if we don't like it, restore it"? It sounds clear that the community is expressing a negative vote about that change to defend Livonya's work and I understand it, but don't you think that it is too much to reject a whole and exausting work only for this reason, work that I'm allowing you to change at your own will?
    More, don't forget that the first user of my mod is myself, I did it for myself and I don't mind to bend myself to the forum's will since I'm nobody's slave. I don't care if you revert it but I don't want to be the responsible of an action that I belive wrong.
    As long as you talk and don't play the game, I feel like a man that is sentenced guilty before a process.
    More, everybody of you is focusing of 1% of the mod, without thinking to the many other benefits that my mod brings, and this is very irritating. Where are the people that drived mad when they discoverd that Elmo and Otis were fighters and not rangers from the beginning untill the previous version? Or that went angry when they saw the amazing Lamia's saving throws or that were complaing for the exagerated Bugbear's natural armor class or were tired about making 20 minutes long fights against Galeb Dhur with that amazing dr 15/- and CR 4 ? Why aren't they here to say "Orion, thanks for listening our requests and for spending a lot of time to fix them and much more"? Honestly, I don't care too much about thanks but please judge my mod in the whole and not focusing only on a animation. Do you have any idea about how much fatiguing and stressing is to make the work that I did? Have you any idea of all the bullshit that I discovered in the game? Aren't you happy to play a game, where fights are really a huge part of it, without cheats, without missing feats or attributes and with monsters that are are better balanced and more competitive? And remember that what you have here is now clay in YOUR hands, since this is probably my last work. Work that is waiting to be tested from you all and rejected or approved, I hope, by Livonya when she is back and hoping that her dissease to eyes will pass quickly. But with this, I mean that I expect not some answer like "the mod is mine and don't even think to change it just because it is mine", but some more concrete answer after a deep analisys of the changes and what they mean.
    Please, you told your opinion, I expressed my reasons that are strong as your ones even if I'm alone: don't be reluctant toward changes, and stop pushing me to revert something that I belive right. Thanks and use my mod in the wisest way, feeling free to revert the few changes when Liv is back and she is able to say her opinion.
     
  2. 0rion79

    0rion79 Established Member

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    People, since I did what I wished, I don't have any other interest in staying here in this forum. Life is short, ToEE is an old game and there is much to do looking toward other horizons. Since tastes are tastes, it is unright that I try to force you to accept my viewpoint as you don't have to push me to accept yours. For this reason, and for the fact that the Co8 relases mods not only for his users only but for the players that reach it through Sorcerer's place, I made a second version of the protos where I reverted the changes (brrr... what I've done! :p) to the Skeletal pirest and I rightfully demand that my mod is linked in the download section of the forum, to allow people to choose. After all, we have the tools that allow to run multiple mods at once, so respect my point of view too. Cheers to everybody, best wished of healing to Livonya and... well, if you need me my mail is: orpheananger@hotmail.com
    PS: note that I modified the description of my mod. Farewell to everybody!
     
  3. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Ummm well where is this reverted protos.tab, and I'll put both on here? Is it at Sorcerer's Place?
    My bad, yes I'd forgotten. I think we've moved on though.
    Just saw this while looking through your new stuff, can't actually find it in any of the downloads: I dunno if you are going to come back here after your farewell, fair enough if you don't, but seriously, this is exactly what we are talking about. It took me hours to sift through Y'Dey's dlg, cobble together something that sounded natural, convert it to wav files, chop it up, patch it together, convert it BACK to mp3s and mod it in, and you just come along and change it. I mean, maybe you just fixed a couple typos or something, fair enough, but how hard is it to write me an email and say, "hey Ted there's a problem in your new Y'Dey dlg, you might wanna fix it". Instead I find out about it in your changelog.
    You changed Liv's giant's head quest as well?
    You changed Liv's Amii quest as well? Hey cop that Cerulean!

    :no:

    Seriously Orion, I am gonna make sure your fixes/changes of non-modder related things go in, even if they don't make this release of Co8 I will agitate they go in later as they r either improvements or fixes, but I just don't think u get it...

    Edit: One last question: this new druidic assistant? Is it the pot boy from the Wench, as per the module? Please tell me it is...
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2005
  4. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    -> Ted, I expect you still want us to still keep testing Orion79s MOD pack? Is this right?
     
  5. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    :dizzy:

    Not much point in delving into all of this any further. Suffice it to say that no one is trying to drive you away, so if you choose to leave you're doing so of your own free will. All anyone ever wanted of you O was to be a bit more disciplined and to play by the same rules as the rest of us. Is that so much to ask? :shrugno:
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2005
  6. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Ummm yeah, for anyone who doesn't mind doing so, why not? If Scather and Fragarach are bugged and Orion has fixed them etc, well, why not make use of it? It will need a lot of testing with that many changes though.

    Edit: Ok back on the previous page I have posted a link to the server here which has all Orion's stuff rolled in together as one zip. I dunno what to make of the changes to Y'Dey's dlg regarding my stuff, he seems to have made 2 changes, both unnecessary and one that may not even work, but maybe I am missing something. He didn't touch my voiced lines though :) I'll test it out.

    The re-worked protos.tab was sent to me as a txt file, when I reverted it to a tab file it was corrupted. Not huge stuff, just a few boxes out of place here and there (lines 14458, 14608, 14609 etc, and that was just skimming through to check). So I am not going to post it lest some poor n00b unknowingly installs it and gets the wrong impression of what we do.

    People PLEASE DON'T EDIT PROTOS.TAB WITH WORDPAD!!! I know some folks have success that way and it is immensely easier, but there are too many failed attempts (including many of mine) and it is asking for trouble!

    Edit 2: Actually tried the protos.tab, ToEE froze at the loading protos part. :sadblinky
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2005
  7. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    Hey Orion79. Please do not take us wrong. We understand you spent a lot of your own personal time in your effort where we realize everything you did is a result of your thoughts and opinions on what ToEE should be. Things like, possibly, fixing Scather and Fragarach and the elite rolls editing and hit die recalculations of every monster in ToEE and the numerous adaptations you made are, for the most part, a tremdous work that should be applauded and, most probably, should be officially added to some degree or level to an official Co8 Fan Fixes release.

    However, certain things make people fussy, like Livonya's Skeletal Priest. Her Skeletal Priest is what she created in her mind and envisioned what it should be and made it from scratch, making it unique and different from anything ever made before to include what it looks like in the game. It is and always will be her idea as a new concept, a realized vision and modded implementation. If you made some new monster or your own unique monster, or, possibly even, you added to it to be in its own encounter, a from scratch work like Livonya did with her Skeletal Priest, and someone, anyone tried to make unrequested changes to your unique work, those of us who are here at that time would tell that someone, anyone that they were off-base for their modding your unique work. I hope this provides you with a better understanding of our general viewpoint.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2005
  8. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    I launched and ran ToEE on Windows 2000 Pro, not ToFFee and not ToFFee Pro - just plain ToEE as follows.
    * patched - Co8 3.0.4 + Livonya's 1.5.1 + ShiningTed new voices and MOD version 1.2.1 + Orion79 MOD pack + extra portraits + Humble PC

    It runs fine. The one big thing to mention is Allyx's new Shops MOD and pre-game verbobonc caravan shops to buy new equipment that is included with ShiningTeds MOD does not work. It starts the game as it used to before Allyxs Shop MOD. My concern was if I manually added them over Orions MOD pack, Orions stuff might be impacted. So, I am running it without Allyx's Shop MOD stuff.

    So far, the big difference I've noticed is monsters hit a little better, now - even goblins and hobgoblins. I even cut to the chase and used a saved game for a party to fight Zuggtmoy after installing Orion79 MOD pack. There have not been any CTDs or other new problems introduced to the game as far as I can see or notice.

    Suggestion: If anyone is going to edit the protos.tab or perform other major edits to the Orion79 MOD pack, can it be requested that the same one person does all the editing so we don't have multiple versions of how things work and, or, possibly, don't work the same for Orions MOD pack? Is it okay to ask this?
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2005
  9. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

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    Orion, I said I would try it out, and I will. Most of the changes you mentioned in the first post sound very good, and I will most likely second ShingingTed in making them a part of a Co8 release. Please calm down. We do appreciate your hard work, and many of the changes you have made. But understand, everybody has there own oppinon, and we here defend the rights of everyone to express it. I don't know why you are so solidly locked into the rules that you can't accept the possibility that there can exist an undead priest who has the appearance of a skeleton, but if that is the oppinion you wish to maintain, I will support your right to do so.

    I to made a change to Liv's work in the first mod I posted here. It increased the chance of finding the Swamp Lotus, but by no means made it a sure thing. I agonized for days as to whether or not I should post it (it being a change to Liv's work and all). I discussed it with the other modders here, and re-read everything Liv ever posted about her mod. In the end I came to the conclusion that the Swamp Lotus quest was working just the way Liv had intended. I still posted the mod, because there was great public demand for it, and because the other modders here who new Liv far better than I did said it would be okay. I still feel a little weird about it though, and I am now thinking I might change my Random Random Encouters mod (which as a by-product makes it even easier to find the Lotus) to decrease the chance of the Lotus showing up.

    The bottom line is that it is all about respect and communication. If you had talked about these changes with the other modders here, and shown respect for their oppinions and hard work, there wouldn't have necessarily been all this commotion and drama.
     
  10. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Glad to hear, but I meant the protos.tab that changes the skeleton priest back doesn't seem to work (and clearly has corruptions in it).

    So people who want to, just change the skeleton priest by hand.

    Edit: O and he specifically mentioned it was based on 1.2.0: it was 1.2.1 that was designed to seamlessly integrate with Allyx's shop mod.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2005
  11. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Stay or go, Orion...it's your choice. Just like it's Gaear's choice whether or not to try out someone's mod. And the same goes for all here. People can come or go, stay or leave, try to mod or not as they choose; and try out various mods as they choose. But changing other works without so much as a 'by your leave' isn't cool. Why else go to all the trouble to find a missing Liv?

    I hate drama...and it seems that someone is crying foul after committing a foul. My sympathy is somewhat lacking. I figured something like this would happen after the first Orion modding experience, but left well enough alone so that the second try would have a fair chance. Well, the burned hand teaches best. I'll not be using it, either, unless the parts that make it in have the stamp of approval of other proven modders.

    ++++++++++++++

    Just to clear the air with you, Blue...I think I'm a champion of fleshing out, and I know the rules are guidelines. I just think there's got to be some sense to it. And by sense, I mean something that fits with the story, fits within the guidelines, and brings a better gaming experience; not just "bigger" or "more" of anything. Beholders in the Meadow would absolutely suck. As I've said, the whole meadows experience is a fleshing out exercise; Liv added a lot to it. If our discussion will further this end, well that's the whole point, isn't it?
     
  12. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

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    I must appologize if my post had a hard edge, making you think you need to clear the air. I was just a little frustrated by a "if it looks like a duck, but doesn't act like a duck, it can't exist" feeling I was getting from this thread. I would love to see a fleshing out of the Meadows and the Skeleton Priest. I will add it to my list of projects to tackle. Though the idea I have in mind would mean the retrieval of artifacts from Rainbow Rock would take longer to achieve. Oh well.

    I have no beef with you Lord Spike. I hope you have none with me.
     
  13. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Definetly no beef! I meant clearing the air as in trying to avoid confusion or remove any further doubt...not as in "let's get something straight". I simply thought we were missing one another's points. Accept my apologies for using a hastily chosen metaphor.
     
  14. Drifter

    Drifter Established Member

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    To put it blunt, some of you are a bunch of ***, and you've proved it again... :cartman:
    I thinks I had it enough with this elitism here too.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2005
  15. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Say what? . . . . . . .
     
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