Original Greyhawk ToEE module (spoilers)

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by anatoliy, Dec 10, 2017.

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  1. anatoliy

    anatoliy Established Member

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    Isn't this philosophy called "Neutral Evil" (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Alignment) ? )))

    I'm myself sometime cynical too. I laugh on Bordello implementation in Nulb, and consider one from Deadwood (TV Series) or even from The Deuce to be much closer to reality. The one from Nulb is childish and naive, especially considering that Nulb supposed to be evil and brutal.

    Nevertheless.

    Funny thing, but cynical implementation is IMMERSION too! ))) Just different kind of. I think the guy from forum you've mentioned just actually wanted immersion, but more matured one)
     
    anatoliy, Dec 11, 2017
    #16
  2. anatoliy

    anatoliy Established Member

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    Why am I digging into this Original vs Troika's comparison?

    That is because I respect both sides. I really do. And I want to understand what was true development background and purpose of their decisions.

    Currently I'm playing the game again. Though I had never finished it. That was because I didn't understand what was going on)))

    Now I go into new room and then read about it in the module. Pure fun and pleasure.
    Even knowing, that AI is extremely stupid, except places where, I guess someone from co8, took time and made decent AI scripting. As Temple broken Tower for example.

    But I imagine what fun it could be, if AI caused creatures to swear, scream and taunt, to circle around, to have decent tactics. To have leader's guards actually stay near in total defense and so on.
     
    anatoliy, Dec 11, 2017
    #17
  3. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Troika had to make the teen rating or whatever it was as well, which eventually led to the brothel being shut down entirely. It seems pretty obvious that it was neutered prior to that too, probably in an attempt to PG-13 it.

    I agree a much more ruthless Nulb would have been good. As it is, it's filled with kindly old men and prostitutes with hearts of gold and the usual tropes like that - hardly a place to be particularly wary of. But again, to overhaul it would a) change it from the original 'vision,' which would piss off many, and b) take a long time and a lot of effort to do well. With people predominantly playing for TB/3.5, it's hard to prioritize story, especially since no consensus will ever emerge that it was good or the right thing to do.
     
    Gaear, Dec 12, 2017
    #18
  4. anatoliy

    anatoliy Established Member

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    Does Fallout Tactics has decent story? Does Jagged Alliance has one? Nevertheless these are best turn based gun games, pure action ones.

    ToEE could be considered as purely action turn based game. But there is a problem - there are quests. And it looks like undeveloped story with some quests.

    If the game was meant to be action only, then there would be no grounds for criticize. But there actually are scrapes of story. Thus opening door for accusation of undeveloped rpg.

    Currently, there is only one goal entering Temple - total annihilation.
    And let's state it even more drastic - this is pure genocide))

    Fortunately, you have good reason - they are evil)))))

    There was great interview of G. Martin, who said that he always wondered what happens after Lord of the Rings regarding goblin and other evil creatures. Was there concentration camp? Or was there penitentiary, or simply genocide? ))
     
    anatoliy, Dec 12, 2017
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  5. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Oh there's plenty of grounds for criticism. I'm just saying that doing something about it, all things considered, is a very murky proposition.
     
    Gaear, Dec 12, 2017
    #20
  6. erkper

    erkper Bugbear Monk Supporter

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    Umm, yes? At least for FoT (I've never played JA) there is about the same level of character development as ToEE and there are definitely quests, even side quests of a sort here and there. So I would say ToEE is EXACTLY in line with those games which you describe as the best pure turn based action games around.
     
    erkper, Dec 14, 2017
    #21
  7. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    The main purpose of the quests in Hommlet is to get the PC's to about level 2 or 3 when taking on the Moathouse becomes significantly easier. Fed Ex quests are dull, and even though no-one really cares about where the jeweler came from or why he stashes gems in the well outside, we still appreciate gaining a little XP easilly to begin with so we can get to tackling the tougher stuff later on.

    In regard to the town hall, it is usual for town halls to be unused most of the time, but available for hire for private functions and town celebrations. Perhaps one day someone will code a few wedding receptions to take place in that building with Terjon/Jaroo preciding and the family and friends of the bride/groom having some meaningless tripe to say while you are in there, but as Troika were busy making a great and complicated game on a too tight timeframe and similar budget, and now disolved entirely it seems to fall to the players to make mods like that... Where is Frank now anyway? ;)

    A more fleshed out and sinister Nulb would be great too, I am certain that while Grud's approval ratings are a top notch, I much prefer the loot in the Giant Gar and the Lamia statuette. Darla the thieving bar maid was a nice bit of coding from Troika, to be fair I would have expected more uses of it in a place like Nulb, perhaps with a random element to it so you know you are going to get robbed, but not when or by who or how often... that would raise the paranoia levels significantly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
    Allyx, Dec 15, 2017
    #22
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