Orc blood in the orc cave

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by zuluwarrior94, Oct 7, 2007.

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  1. Zebedee

    Zebedee Veteran Member Veteran

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    I'm certainly not precious about anything I put up at Co8 - and certainly not the very limited changes I was able to make when huge rewrites would have caused more problems than they solved. So I'm all for making things more modular compliant. :)
     
  2. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    Nira Melubb "....if you catch my drift."
    That is why I love the low intelligence dialog!
     
  3. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    @ H_K

    Thanks for the suggestions, I am indeed planning on making most changes through dialog. I'm also "channeling" ShiningTed by adding some Old Faith (witchery) available even w/out DH. I plan on using the curse (not disease) route for Bing to explain why Terjon couldn't Heal Bing.

    @ Zeb

    None of these quests are PnP from what I remember, so there's no "official version." I just want to give parties / characters of other religions and alignments more "realistic" interaction with Hommlet's religion(s). FYI, my current draft for Jakk & Bing still uses the Orc Blood, but either as a reagent needed for MW items or part of removing Bing's curse. However, if Bing is cursed, he'll be cursed regardless of when you talk to Jakk and Bing. And the character/party religion will affect Jakk's [potential] conversion -- the PCs will lift Bing's curse (allowing him to craft MW weapons as Jakk's apprentice), and Jakk will take attribute Bing's restoration as the work of the restorer's Faith.

    --thearioch
     
  4. Zebedee

    Zebedee Veteran Member Veteran

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    I've personally no problem if the orc blood was dumped totally. It was a little thing I put in to relieve boredom in modding the .dlg files and trying to fit text into places so it didn't impact upon anything which had been added which would be even harder to change and as a nod of acknowledgement to many nights spent chatting to Ruf over IRC :stoned: It really shouldn't be there but I figured that only experienced players would run straight to Terjon and throw the potion of heal on Bing and so they could go and figure out what had gone wrong. As I said, add, remove and do anything to anything I have ever done. That's what modding is about for me :)

    There is a lot which could be done with every .dlg file in the entire game - and the more that is done the better to be honest - to help demonstrate a very fine system of dialogue. The upside of a nuclear approach to the dialogue is that we can now actually do this without having both hands tied behind our backs :Cutlery_T

    What I meant by more modular compliant is that from what (admittedly little) I've been able to read of your work (so much to catch up), it builds upon the module's characters and fleshes them out.
     
  5. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    Nooo...the orc blood (tho i've never found it) it's a cool idea! :)

    Maybe could be used as Arioch says, as reagent, explaining that combined with a heal potion will cure the curse. If it can be addressed later for Amii's cure, it would be nice too, even if it doesn't work for Amii, it will give the whole lot of quests some cohesion...
    Maybe, the orc blood could work as Keoghtom's ointment, with three doses, and various uses (none of them directly, but as Arioch says, as reagent or offering to something, etc)

    I also agree, the more the dlgs got worked, the better.
    If you think of it, there's a lot of "poisoning/sickness/curses" issues for a small town :txtsmilie
    A cospiracy? :paranoid:

    I would like to see more people in Hommlet n Nulb... there's only "useful" people, not the common random farmer. A few of normal people inside houses, or walking around wouldn't hurt, like the construction - I think Gaear has planned something like that-
     
  6. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    Yeah, the Hommlet citizens do seem to be pretty bad off for having a high-level cleric, high-level druid, *and* witches all within a few hundred yards....

    The main problem with the Orc Blood is that getting it is rather difficult for low level characters, so I wouldn't want to tie too many quests to it. Blocking MW weapons to level 4 isn't a big deal, but the Orc Cave itself is already another quest (which I may hack), so adding Ami is a 3rd quest completed by the same act.

    Not that I'm unwilling to redo the Ami quest entirely...the out-of-town party needs to find a local plant that the 12th level druid is too lazy to harvest? C'mon...

    --thearioch
     
  7. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    Arioch, was it you who had suggested a little while ago that one cure would be available for either Bing or Amii? I thought that idea had some merit.

    No MW weapons until Clvl 4 not an issue??? 3.5 DMG suggests that 2nd level PCs have 900gp assets. The DMG list of instant NPCs shows that at 2nd level a masterwork weapon and/or armor is possessed.

    That said, I wonder if ToEE is gold poor at the early levels. I am not suggesting any change here, but I am not sure if I agree with the necessity of indirect level requirements (e.g. Giant's head, orc's blood) to get MW weapons. If the party goes around Hommlet picking pockets then great, let them spend it.

    On a side note, I thought it would have been funny if the Ogre's head from Moathouse could be taken and the Blacksmith chastises the PCs.
     
  8. Zebedee

    Zebedee Veteran Member Veteran

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    I actually agree with what you say there Basil, if masterwork weapons had been included more widely by Troika in the vanilla game. The problem is that Co8 has added them in and there is a feeling amongst some people (although I'd dispute it strongly) that as a result the game has become 'unbalanced'.

    Those who say that there is something not quite right when a tiny little village like Hommlet has the resources and trading facilities of a city like Verbobonc do have a point. It is a little monty-haul if those facilities are available from level 1. At least the quests do give some form of reason and background to the sudden availability of masses of rather cool weapons etc. (which is kind of the point thearioch is making about the high-level NPCs who just happen to be in the area - although it has to be said, in the main they do have reasonable excuses for being there if one takes time to talk to them).

    It's not as if interesting weapons aren't available to low-level parties. There are ample goodies scattered about - but to be able to buy exactly what you require at that level? I genuinely don't know whether that's a good idea after levelling several parties without that restriction on masterwork weapons entering the game economy.

    In general, DnD parties are gold poor at the beginning and overly weighed down with it by the end of the adventure. Personally, I put that down to the actual DnD system being implemented by a non-intelligent and non-responsive DM ie the pc game although if the system was a little more sensible with regards to loot one wouldn't require such sensitive Dming to try and maintain some semblance of sanity in the game whether PnP or PC.

    Lord Spike is very good at interpreting the module as a DM, and I'd certainly recommend seeking out his views of how things should play out if theantioch decides this is the project he wishes to pursue. Might also be a plan to start asking other modders first before announcing changes to their mods and fixes - doing it to 3 in one thread (albeit 2 totally inactive and 1 on a break from true Co8 modding) is starting to look a tad less than polite ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2008
  9. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    Less than polite?? I thought we are just talking here. I said quite clearly, "I am not suggesting any change here.....", and I thank you for providing the concept behind the design.

    My agreement or disagreement is immaterial since I am only one person who has no power. I just hope to contribute within my means. You obviously have the power to ban me if my voice is not welcome.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2008
  10. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    In Liv's defense, the swamp lotus is supposed to be extremely rare. Given his other responsibilities, I don't suppose Jaroo would have time to traipse the countryside looking for an unlikely plant ... which is why he asks the party to keep an eye out during their travels.

    As Zeb said, this is tied to perceived issues of game balance, so it's not going to change. In vanilla you couldn't get MW items until you got to Nulb, I believe.

    Questions of politeness aside, there's also something of an honor system at work here. Original content has always been fair game to be expanded upon, and new mods are wide open as long as they're constrained by the D&D ruleset and module and game world sensibilities. But generally we should avoid tampering with other modders' mods unless there's something wrong with them, and/or unless those modders have utterly flown the coop.

    To be specific, I think thearioch's conversion stuff and Bing fixes are legit, but any MW alterations and swamp lotus changes probably are not (unless a compelling case could be made) and wouldn't be included in the modpack.

    And Basil, I'm not sure that anyone was even talking to you specifically, so relax.
     
  11. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    @ALL: I mean no disrespect or dishonor to anyone -- I'm standing on the shoulders of giants, and I'm quite aware of it. I'm freely using tools you [pl] have honed for years with my personal game. To the extent I think changes I have made will be appreciated, I intend to offer them back to the collective. I fully expect the creators of various mods will have veto power over my suggestions. However, as mentioned recently, it's hard to make an "improvement" in one area without interacting to some extent with somebody else's changes. I fully intend to minimize such overlap, and I am trying to keep at least the spirit of previous work in my "additions."

    @Bing MW -- I plan to keep Bing as the MW leather worker, and I intend to keep the Orc Blood as a key to getting him to make the MWs, so no changes in game balance. The dialog will change a bit, and the party will have more options as to who Jakk thanks for Bing's restoration. Terjon will still have failed to HEAL Bing, but now Terjon's potion of HEAL will not restore Bing. In short, I see my work as building on, not replacing, the current Co8 mods.

    @Orc Cave -- I think I mentioned this a while ago, but here's how I see it. Currently, Kenton Nevets gives a quest [62], which has no CR/EL assigned to it in gamequestlog.mes. The engine interprets this as a CR/EL of {1} (minimum value -- I think I tried {0} and it was treated like a {1}). I assume this was done to let it show in the Log book. I am trying to "enhance" ToEE and find other ways to write to the Log (which, as engine code, means I wil llikely fail without source code). I guess at Level 4 theCR/EL {1} isn't enough XP to worry about (although I have seen discussion of Co8 adding too much mid-level XP), so I probably won't end up touching this quest at all. But my rules-sense abhors giving quest XP for an encounter that is just one combat, and thus presumed to provide all appropriate XP, so I was going to remove the quest aspect from the dialog. I intended no other change to this encounter -- in point of fact, I enjoyed it immensely as written.

    @Ami -- I just don't buy Jaroo being too busy to help a sick child, I mean there's what, a couple of hundred people in town tops? I don't think I'd change much -- probably just not make it a random encounter where Jaroo should have access. Maybe the Healer in Nulb sells it (Jaroo not trafficking with Nulb makes sense), Lareth decorating a table with it, etc. Just put it somewhere it's plausible Jaroo wouldn't find with a quick Commune With Nature.

    --thearioch
     
  12. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    Well, it makes sense.
    I always feel cheated... "oh thanks to St Cuthbert!" :blegh:
    Maybe some small changes (like you say) and some tasty detail to make the quest work better. :)
    Still, since the quest needs to be completed, you'll have to make a clever solution, or at least a satisfactory explanation on how/why Jakk still joins the church

    Can i suggest an easy solution?
    Why not having Nevets say something like "there are rumours of bandits or the like in X place...could you check that so badgers will stay alert?" so players go there, and when arrive to the map they get a dialog box saying "after a creful search, you see tracks...judgins the filthiness, probably a large group of Orcs". So they can go back and complete the quest by simply saying "i've checked Kenter...i think those are orcs" and quest completes. Small xp, small troubles. Then the players could go later and fight against them, or if evil let them be...and maybe we could add an extra ending about that ;) Gaear?

    It makes sense too...but i'd say let this one be.
    It has been discussed enough. Let's assume that Jaroo it's too busy keeping Amii alive, dealing with Hommlet problems and..eer, keeping the balance ;)

    There's a lot of potential in Hommlet for new quests:

    -Prove Renton that Jinnert could fight too, not only sew.
    -Deal with Gnomes that worries the potter.
    -You prevent Otelo from steal, but that didn't solve their problems, poor guy.
    -What's up quest I: what's up with the empty pool at Jaroo's?
    -What's up quest II: what's up with the empty church looking building?

    and i could go on and on. Some could be low level, to spice up Hommlet, while other could have connotations towards the endgame... :)
     
  13. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    @Ami again -- How does this sound?

    1) Edit Jaroo dialog -- he knows Swamp Lotus will save Ami because he found it and used it to cure someone in his past.

    2) Swamp Lotus is magical, and (to Jaroo's knowledge) can be found only once by any person (or party), so he *can't* find it for Ami, even with high-level spells. Jaroo can mention that he has told his entire congregation to be on the lookout for Swamp Lotus, so it doesn't seem like just the low-level outsiders can save the day. The party is supposed to be heroic, that's why the party finds the Lotus before the townspeople.

    3) Swamp Lotus can be used as a component for enhancing items -- giving neutral/evil characters an alternate use. Paladins pimping their items instead of curing Ami might fall.

    All I care about is that the quest make sense on some level, and I think this preserves the quest as written for good characters while explaining why high-level Jaroo can't cure Ami without low-level party assistance.

    --thearioch
     
  14. Zebedee

    Zebedee Veteran Member Veteran

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    No worries thearioch :) And if it's a fix then there isn't an issue or even a shadow of an issue. The whole of Hommlet needs a massive rewrite - if nothing else, then to tidy it up for future work.

    I think this is an excellent idea which adds depth to the game.

    Ruf initially did not intend for this to be a 'quest' as such. But due to the number of people who do report such non-xp quests as 'bugs', he put it up for a community vote. As the community felt it should appear in the logbook, he chose to assign it the lowest amount of XP as the rewards for surviving the orc cave are actually sufficient in and of themselves. Should the entire game be rebalanced to better fit in additional content etc, then of course we need to reconsider all CRs for quests.

    Good luck with trying to fiddle with the logbook - that is well out of my league but I'll certainly help with testing :)

    This probably falls into additional content which Liv (the original modder) should be asked for an opinion on. If there's no response after a fair amount of time to say either yes or no, then I would certainly back trying to fit it into the game in a more comprehensive fashion given what is now possible in comparison to the tools and knowledge Liv had available to her when it was first written.
    --------

    @Basil - as Gaear said, the thrust of the post was more general than specific. Apologies if I accidentally caused any offence to you. I only referenced your name because I felt that you'd made a good point but one which was not applicable in this case :)

    -----

    @Gaear - as ever, I am in almost total agreement with you. Thanks for helping to clarify my ramblings ;)
     
  15. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Indeed, there will be a great many more people in Hommlet in the future, most of them just regular folks. I hope it will make the place seem like less of a ghost town.

    As for random farmers, there actually arren't many random farms, and those that do exist are typically the size of someon'e flower garden. I prefer to think that the bulk of their fields are actually outside the borders of the village. ;)

    Point of clarification on the MW issue: the aspect of that which would likely be rejected is simply making them avaialble early; not changes to who makes what MW items, and what vagaries are encountered in the process. So tuning up Bing in relation to his masterwork aspirations (whatever they are) would probably be just fine in my view.

    Re; Kenter Nevets and the orc cave, let's keep that within the bounds of the existing audio, please, unless there's some really good reason not to. I personally don't have a problem with it as it is - Kenter knows about orcs, sends party to get them (though that could be fleshed out ala Welkwood). Changes to quest status and CR etc. sound legitimate.

    Re: swamp lotus, I don't like the idea of it being magical. That sounds a bit hokey, tbh ... remember, Greyhawk = low magic. "Let's keep it real." ;)

    Re: Liv, she's run off again, so I personally don't think we're obligated to delay while we wait to see if she comes back. This should be a simple formula: a member is considered 'active' if he/she has been on the boards in, let's say, the last month or so. If that member's not active, you don't have to seek permission to modify their stuff in a responsible and considerate manner.

    However, you should consider mitigating circumstances, such as how revered the material in question is (think Livonya vs. 0rion and that concept should be crystal clear), and of course it's always appropriate to put such matters up for public discussion anyway. Ultimately the guardian of this trust will be me, or whomever the current mod manager guy is. If I feel you're outside the bounds of what you're entitled to regarding someone else's material, you'll be advised of such, or the mod will be rejected, or whatever. I think this system of 'checks and balances' actually works quite well.

    @Threatrock - sorry if it seems you're being singled out for this scrutiny again. That's really not the case. You just seem to naturally find yourself in the center of these controversies. Must be your scallywag nature. ;)
     
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