Of weapons and bandits....(rant time)

Umm Krunch you are missing the point. The short spear in 3.5 that will allow you to hold it 1 handed with a shield and throw at a range of 20'. But Keolander original wanted something that couldn't be thrown and still used 1 handed. Why is beyond me. There is a weapon in the game that already fits both needs and you all really don't need to waste time and energy trying to research information of ancient weapons to fit the bill. Now maybe if you wished to create an unusual weapon from ancient times that come no where near anything in the game then that wouldn't be a waste of time.

BTW I am not meaning to be snappy, but I am sure most folks out there know of the Greek hoplites and the value of a spear/shield combo ( i do not care the real name of the spear because it is still a spear weapon) but what you are forgetting is that they were only good because there were 50 other spear/shield wielders all standing side bye side and a row just as long behind them forming a wall of jabbing points you would have to fight through to get to the men. As one person I would fear the spear/shield would lose to a sword-Axe/Shield wielder. Simple reason would show you couldn't use the spear as any sort of parry weapon due to its length and the shield in the other hand and would only be limited to thrust moves and maybe a few slash type swings, where as a 2handed spear could be wielded more staff like and give you a better range of attacks and defensive maneuvers.
The sword is more designed as a weapon for a shield so you can carry out a multitude of offensive and defensive attacks with it while using your shield to block. As for the spear wall all those soldiers also carried a short sword like to a long dagger like weapon for when the opposing forces fought past the spear wall they would then drop the spear for a more offensive/defensive weapon to carry on the fight instead of wielding a massive weapon in crowded area.

Macer

 

Since I know there's many people on this forum that do not play PnP D&D, I'll post the stats of the various spears, so this matter (that seemed quite on the closed side yesterday...) will be much more clear for everyone.

D&D Player Handbook, ed3.5 page 116

SIMPLE WEAPONS (i.e usable by Clerics and Sorceres too)

One-handed weapons
Shortspear [#1]
Cost: 1gp; Dam: 1d6; Crit: x2; Range: 6m; Wt: 1,35Kg; Type: Piercing

Two-handed weapons
Spear [#2]
Cost: 2gp; Dam: 1d8; Crit: x3; Range: 6m; Wt: 2,7Kg; Type: Piercing

Longspear [#3]
Cost: 5gp; Dam: 1d8; Crit: x3; Range: -; Wt: 4Kg; Type: Piercing - REACH 3m

Now, Keolander wanted to change the Spear [#2] into a one-handed weapon with Range 0 (IIRC: read his posts for more details on his proposals).
The rest is history (in some posts quite literally ; )

Hoping this helped clearing everyone doubts.

P.S.
I never noticed the x2 crit modifier for the shortspear... Quite illogical, if you ask me. I believe it's there for game balance (having it x3 would have put this weapon too much over the mighty club, I guess... Doh :shrug: )

 

Note: Thnx Macer for the clarification on what he was actually ranting about.

There are Long Spears and Short Spears. Short Spears are typically 6 or less feet. Long Spears are typically over 6 feet and can be up to 10 or more feet. Some people [historians], generally, classify pike weapons as spears, what would be Long Spears in D&D.

You do not throw a short spear using 2 hands. Short spears are just single handed weapons and were intended for throwing or using along with either a shield, a net, or a weapon in the other hand.

Long spears are different. While in real life and army usage, Long Spears were sometimes used as one-handed weapons. That is different from D&D. How so? (glad you asked) Long Spears being one-handed was done in formations for soldiers to make a dangerous line to cross, especially against a charging force or against calvary troops. That is not how a Long Spear would be used in D&D...completely different. In D&D combat, a long spear would be used like a halberd or a pike or a guisarme against one or a few opponents in close quarters or open field combat. That is very different from troops trained for army front-line combat against an opposing army front-line of soldiers. That is precisely why the Long Spear is a 2 hand weapon in D&D.

IMO - A long spear should require two hands to wield as a weapon and should not be able to be thrown.

In real life, there is no spear that is between a short spear and long spear. A spear is classified as either a short spear or long spear. Personally, I do not see any difference in a #2 and #3 spear in the new D&D, except maybe #2 could be 8 feet and the longer #3 could be 11+ feet. Both represent the same kind of use in combat, except #3 has more reach; the fighting style is the same for both.

[Last Word] Now, having said that, I guess if Keolander is nice to and begs-n-pleads with the modders here at Co8 [maybe instead of ranting and trying to argue in a thread] he might be able to catch one of the modders in a generous mood one day to make and add a new spear called "Keolander Spear" with his requested attributes that could only be consoled in to the game.

 

The difference between the two has to be spelled out in the D&D rules because of the way reach works. A spear that can attack 5' in front of you has to be different from a spear that can attack 10' in front of you but can't attack 5'. In 3.0 the weapons were named half spear, short spear and long spear, but apparently players found that too confusing, so half spear became short spear, and the short spear became spear.

 

Why would you not be able to attack anything within 5' if you used a reach of 10' weapon? Anything you fight that has a range of 2 squares (I.E miniature rules for 10') can attack you at 5" or closer, otherwise when you closed in on Giants they wouldn't be able to defend with their weapons. Wouldn't the rules also justify the PC as to be able to attack with 10' reaching weapons within 5' mark?

Now physics wise I can understand why you can. The pointy end is way past the target at the 5' mark, just questioning the rules of it

Macer

 

Natural reach is different from using a reach weapon. A giant can hit both 10' away and 5' away with his club.

If you give him a longspear, though, he can only hit 15' away and 10' away. Same goes for a PC with a reach weapon. As you say, the pointy end is 5' past the guy.

If a weapon could hit both 5' away and 10' away, from a rules perspective it's twice as good as a weapon that can only hit from 5' away. Which is why the only weapon that can do that, the spiked chain, is an exotic weapon. It costs you a feat and damage-wise it's still a little worse than most reach weapons (since it only does x2 critical.)

In ToEE, however, the game allows all reach weapons to hit at both 5' and 10' which makes them somewhat over-powered.

 

Now, that zweihander 2-handed sword you made looks very much like just the kind of sword to be a favorite of and used by a Paladin or Cavalier.

 

Hmmph...not bored, just swamped for the past week. I had to travel to Atlanta last week and was only back 1 day before having to work a long weeked (Thursday to Monday). I'm only now getting caught up.

Anyway, cool dude! Thanks for the weapons change....:giggle:

 

You know what they say...it takes 2 hands to handle a "whopper." Too bad there isn't a way to ditch the penalty if one were, say, the size of a giant or something. Looks like an item for Steading of the Hill Giant Chief. Four feet of blade, 2 feet of handle. Daddy like! Spike used Jarl Grugnir's +4 2-hander for a looong time; many Fire Giants & Drow fell to it in the Hall of the Fire Giant King. & beyond. His friends got a taste of it, too when he was charmed once upon a time. The charm was soon broken, and they got a Ring of Spell Turning for him immediately afterwards...

 

Ted... you're the proverbial man. :wave: