New Feats for the ToEE Engine

Discussion in 'ToEE Toolset Project Documentation' started by Shiningted, Dec 23, 2007.

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  1. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    I'm happy to look into those feats: Greater Dodge should be doable with some fiddling around. I don't see it in the SRD though, nor fighter special abilities like the rogues' (uncanny dodge etc) - are you just making suggestions?
     
  2. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    skills and feats

    I thought I had seen a thread about proposals for future development. I couldn't find it so here are my 2cp worth.

    Quick Draw: Avoid hassles when switching weapons.

    Escape Artist: Without this skill, how can dextrous/rogue characters get free? Does Break Free use strength only, or does it use dexterity when advantageous?

    Decipher Script: I rarely saw a use for this in my PnP campaigns but, low and behold, I saw a message to Lareth written in Drow (I suppose). Useful, especially as there is no Comprehend Languages spell.

    Knowledge skills: I am going to assume that the above two might be easier to add, Knowledge would be very difficult.

    Grapple: Grappling Monks - need I say more?

    What are the modders thoughts?
     
  3. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Re: skills and feats

    This modder is thinking he'd move this to the appropriate thread HERE if he was a moderator in this forum :wave:

    Quick Draw: Already in the game, unless overwork has driven me insane.

    Escape Artist: Interesting idea. I would like to one day factor in Balance for Grease etc along the same lines. But our efforts to impact 'break free' using Liv's potion of break-free still involve a call to the engine, which is set on Strength not Dex - I don't think we can change that, and I doubt Escape Artist would be worth adding otherwise. My personal feeling is that if you are going to add a skill, there have to be multiple opportunities to use it - not just for one moment in the game (not that you are suggesting that, I am just saying, we have to have opportunities to use it to make it worth adding. Otherwise players will feel gyped when they take ranks in it and there is nowhere to use it).

    Knowledge and Decipher Script: As above. Easy to add, but you have to incorporate all sorts of moments for it to come into service. Ditto Craft and Profession. A lot of work for the modders, but worth keeping in mind for anyone thinking of starting a new module (we couldn't add new skills when KotB began, but I will backdate a few like Disguise as I go).

    Grapple Can't be done. No animations (other than the frog's tongue) and thats a major change to the engine. Yup, would all love to see it, but you'll see Disarm and even Sunder before you see Grapple, and you won't see either of those any time soon (if ever).
     
  4. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Why didn't someone tell me there was a 'Greater Two Weapon Fighting' at BAB +11?

    Testing now.

    EDIT: And there's a 'Greater Weapon Specialisation' in there, but not for each weapon? Whats with that???

    2nd EDIT: Damn, 'Greater 2wf' didn't work and 'greater weapon specialisation' seems to get mixed up with 'greater weapon focus', kicking in at lvl 8. More testing needed :scratchhe

    3rd EDIT: Ahhh, I see this is what Ben34 was reporting above. Well Ben, I tried to fix it but I couldn't - it seems to be a direct call to a string in the .dll, rather than to one of the .mes files. Thats peculiar. :scratchhe

    4th EDIT: O wait he's saying this is a NEW bug that we've introduced? Well that is peculiar... more testing needed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2008
  5. Tyrannar

    Tyrannar Wanderer in the dark

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    Supreme 2 weapon fighting at BAB+16?
     
  6. ShadowDeth

    ShadowDeth Save Versus : Stupid

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    Would Ambidexterity be possible?

    Something along the lines of the old 3.0 feat?

    Requiring Two Weapon Fighting, dex 17 or so, and reducing the two weapon fighting penalties from -4-4 to -2-2?

    This would enable two single handed weapons (-2-2 is much more workable than -4-4 when using say, two longswords or whatever your character would) and this also enables higher accuracy for characters using TWF the way it was supposed to be used (Shortsword/dagger etc at -0-0).

    I don't think this feat would be unbalanced, with the statistical breakdown of twf never being worth it unless you have tons of elemental dice or other modifiers like sneak attack to tack onto the bonus attacks.

    I'd like to be able to play a warrior with two weapons larger than a rapier for once, personally.
     
  7. Tyrannar

    Tyrannar Wanderer in the dark

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    Old Ambidexterity was different from what you mention now and in 3,5 ED ambidex and twf are merged in twf.

    You can still fight with 2 medium size weapons, In fact i have Fruella wielding 2 cleavers but at -4/-4 penalty.

    What You suggest is that you can wield 2 weapons with no penalty at all, so tell me would there be any reason not to have every member in party dual wielding? I mean character can have 1 attack with a given attack bonus, or have 2 attacks with the same attack bonus. That is no choice at all, dont know who would be that stupid and not choose to have an off hand weapon. They may as well delete all shields from protoss.tab file.

    You have a way to fight 2 weapons so be happy with it!
     
  8. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Ambidexterity is in there, so I will activate is and see what happens. We can always change its name if it is anything interesting.

    Otherwise, Greater TWF just confirmed every other test like this - the game recognises every feat in the PHB but nothing over lvl 10 has any sort of implementation. What we are looking for is stuff that was implemented then removed (like the repeating crossbows), stuff that doesn't require anything in the engine (like new weapon proficiencies - they all run off the same part of the engine, so we can activate whips, nets etc if it takes our fancy, which it doesn't since we can't do the attack stuff, animations etc. Ditto all the new skills we did) or stuff that was implemented for 3.0 then abandoned but might still be of use to us somehow. Unfortunately anything over lvl 10 seems to be out of the question, unless we can somehow script the effects rather than have them through the engine, which is a tall order in most cases.

    Anyways, thanks for the feedback guys :thumbsup:

    EDIT: Ambidexterity is actually 'Ambidexterity Ranger', and is already activated :scratchhe For those who don't know, TWF Ranger, Rapid Shot Ranger and Many Shot Ranger are seperate feats in the engine (possibly since they allow the sidestepping of prerequisites. There is also something seperate at the end of the feats list called 'TWF style' - I might activate that and see what happens.

    2nd EDIT: Damn I shoot my mouth off sometimes - 'TWF Style' just refers to Rangers who go TWF as opposed to Rangers who go 'Archery Style'. Another dead end :sadblinky
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2008
  9. ShadowDeth

    ShadowDeth Save Versus : Stupid

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    What I'm actually suggesting is being able to wield two *light* weapons at no penalty. I'm also suggesting being able to wield two one handed weapons at -2-2.

    Two reasons actually. A shield, or a two handed weapons. Without bonus damage dice from some other source like sneak attack, elemental dice or something like skirmish from the PnP, both other methods out-perform two weapons. Fighters (warriors) should never be using two weapons with the current rules in ToEE. The synergy between strength, and power attack with something like a greatsword totally outperform a pair of longswords or whatever. There are some builds that abuse two weapons, like the dual x4 ice pick characters and so forth, but for the most part it's completely underpowered. And that's after you burn a bunch of feats to enable your off hand to attack competently.

    Correction : A character can have one attack at their attack bonus with something like 2d6 damage and the ability to juice it up with powerattack and extra strength modifiers, or they can have something like -2-2 with d8/d6 and no strength mod for their off hand, and only 1x str for their primary. That's *after* using a feat. Two weapon fighting is dangerous in the hands of a rogue, but in the hands of someone without an inherent damage modifier that applies to all attacks in a round, it's wholly inferior. The only place it exceeds two handed fighting is against very low AC targets, ones with a lower AC than normal monsters at your challenge rating. But then it eats it against high AC targets.

    It's obvious you don't really understand the math involved or simple action tempo, so I would suggest cutting the attitude? Any time you're not able to use a full round action, you lose your attack. That is quite a few situations, even in ToEE. Shields can gain you upwards of +7 AC for a +3 tower shield, or +5 for a large shield. That is pretty significant, and even at lower levels a +2 is much more useful than gimping both of your hands with penalties to pretend to be a ninja.

    And spending a feat on it. And then spending two more feats to gain the rest of your iterative attacks.

    My proposal is the ability to spend two feats to gain an additional attack. That is not ridiculous at all.

    Shiningted - Maybe I misunderstood. You have the ability to write whole new feats? Or were you just saying that you tried activating some inactive feats and found a dead end?

    If it is possible to write the feat in, I would say the easiest way to make it work conceptually and rules-wise is to just add a simple +2 to both hands when dual wielding. The game engine sorts out automatically whether or not the weapons qualify for having a light weapon in the off hand, so a patchwork bonus approximating the effect would suffice. I know that's how the engine already works it out, it gives you the massive penalty, then starts adding in bonuses depending on the existance of the TWF feat, and then checks to see if light weapons exist or not.

    And no, -4-4 to use two single handed weapons is never feasible against normal armor. I've thought long and hard about whether or not this would be fair for a feat, as this isn't about power gaming, Ted, two weapons would still be inferior, but thematically, I like it *a lot*. And I think others would too. I'd b e quite pleased if I could pull off my two katana fighter/rogue (Ninja) build. And In PNP this would still be a waste of a feat, but since the scope of the feats are so limited in ToEE, any real fighter build has feats to blow at any given time and they end up being minor things.

    Back to Tyrannar, the absolute worst thing you could do to "abuse" TWF and my proposed ambidexterity feat would be to also take an exotic weapon such as a Dwarven waraxe or vastard sword. Then you're talking some decent damage output, but still at a -2-2.

    That would then bring the grand total of wasted feats to 3.

    TWF
    Ambi
    Exotic

    That's spending three feats to get another attack, at a -2. Never mind the greatsword is still doing comparable damage, with extra str thrown in, without gaining a penalty to hit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2008
  10. erkper

    erkper Bugbear Monk Supporter

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    I won't get into the twf/2h weapon debate - it's been done to death and at high levels it really just boils down to personal preference.

    However, Tyrannar was correct in that in TOEE, the old 3.0 feats Ambidexterity (which gave a +4 to off hand weapon use) and the 3.0 version of twf (+2 to each hand) were merged into a single feat. The penalty for twf w/o feats is -6 to main hand, -10 to off hand. A light weapon in the offhand reduced those penalties to -4/-8. In 3.0, Ambidexterity reduced it to -6/-6 or -4/-4 if a light off hand was used, and twf was another +2/+2, so the end result with both feats was -4/-4 if a medium weapon was used in the off hand, or -2/-2 if the off hand weapon was light. TOEE already combines those two into a single feat - you get the exact same penalties as the old 2 feat 3.0 style. To re-introduce Ambidexterity as a seperate feat and gain an extra +2/+2 is not RAW and would upset the balance TOEE attempts to create.

    Think of it this way - TOEE already makes you spend one less feat than the 3.0 rules did, so you are getting a bonus as is. Don't get greedy... :roll:
     
  11. Greylan

    Greylan Established Member

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    I agree with keeping RAW and not adding in Ambi, but just wanted to mention that Shadow was right about the statistical breakdown -- 2h, in terms of damage output, wins every time. Wizards even acknowledged it in their Sage advice. I could probably hunt it down in one of the Dragon mags. :)
     
  12. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Well I had in mind redesigning Ambidexterity into something more usable, such as Greater TWF, if it worked, but it doesn't so don't fret.

    Of course, you know that now I have to go dual-light-picks with my next ranger...
    Both: but implementing the feats by scripting is very very difficult. Scripts need something to hang on, such as an object or an NPC: hanging them on the PC is nigh impossible (hence things like the 'monks belt').
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2008
  13. ShadowDeth

    ShadowDeth Save Versus : Stupid

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    It's not really preference. It's fact. Damage die modifiers = TWF is better. Any other situation, straight up strength builds and a 2 handed weapon is wholly superior. Lots of real combat in PNP, just like TOEE is centered around charging, getting a swipe in or so, then charging to another target. Two weapons don't help on charges, or when you have to move, or any other time you don't have your full round for whatever reason.

    I never understood why people argue this. What does more damage, a monk at 1st level with flurry or a 1st level fighter with a greatsword? That's the quickest way to illustrate how penalties to hit = less uh, hits, = less damage overall - unless it's against a very soft target.

    But.....that sucks Ted.

    May I suggest breaking the RAW and trying this anyways? TWF was written into DnD for rogues to use, and as such, it doesn't apply to the rest of the cast of characters. TWF has always been fundamentally flawed in the game, and I think setting two feats on fire to get your other hand working as well as your first one isn't unbalanced at all.

    I'd like to see it on fighters, who would actually hit stuff.
     
  14. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    As I said, ambidexterity is already switched on. Whatever it does, it is already doing it :)

    Btw, Greedo shot first :icon_chuc
     
  15. erkper

    erkper Bugbear Monk Supporter

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    For a straight up strength build, that is correct. But if you are playing a high-Dex, Weapon Finesse swashbuckler-type of fighter TWF can be a better choice, especially if you used point-buy and don't have a very high strength. Hence my assertation that at high levels (as you will need to invest in at least TWF and Weapon Finesse, and the full build goes down the Whirlwind path) it is pretty much the same. In ToEE, this is even more true with the crafting abilities that easily can add exactly the extra damage dice that as you admitted make TWF hold it's own or even result in superior damage over a single two-hander.

    There - I got into the debate I said I didn't want to. That makes me feel so much better...
     
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