Need help fixing 2 useless characters (Bard & Cleric)

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by blackjack, Oct 18, 2012.

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  1. blackjack

    blackjack Member

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    I'm currently @ Imeryds Run and I'm having trouble getting anything useful out of my Bard and Cleric. The Bard is the biggest problem as she can't cast very well, can't melee, and can't use a scroll 50% of the time. I'm new and unable to troubleshoot.

    2 Melee- Barbarian & Chain Fighter
    2 Tweeners- Cleric & Druid
    2 Casters- Bard & Wizard

    Bard
    Human
    L4
    25HP
    16AC

    S11
    D16
    C14
    I17
    W12
    C18

    Feats- Spell Focus Enchantment, GSF Enchantment, Spell Pen

    Perhaps Bards are just weak early on but maybe someone can point me to some equipment or build tweaks to pickup soon.

    The Cleric
    The plan is to have him heal (some) and assist with melee. The problem is he can't hit anything.

    C2/F2
    Dwarf
    HP46
    AC19 (Elven Armor/Shield)

    S14
    D12
    C18
    I11
    W18
    C14

    Feats: Skill Focus Concentration, Imp Int, Weapon Focus Club, Improve Turn
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  2. Goshi3156

    Goshi3156 Dire Badger

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    Cleric and useless being used in the same sentence? The end of the world has come upon us! Fire shall rain from the skies and blot out the sun!

    ...

    Clubs are not that good, Dwarven Clerics can make use of Dwarven War Axes, which are one-handed and they use d10s for damage instead of the club's d6. Heavy Maces are another option, they do bludgeoning damage and they use d8s for their damage. If his attack rolls are a problem then roll up a Cleric with higher STR. Unless you want him to be a Sun domain Cleric you can probably get away with a lower CHA score. Also you're really hurting yourself multiclassing a Cleric early on. You should stick with Cleric levels and wait until much later to grab the Fighter levels. I usually start investing in them once my Cleric is able to cast both Heal and Harm.
     
  3. blackjack

    blackjack Member

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    Good advice. Yeah I screwed up on the Weapon. Useless was an overstatement...the bard is really the problem atm.

    Why is her scroll % usage so bad?
     
  4. Goshi3156

    Goshi3156 Dire Badger

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    Is your Bard trained in Use Magic Device?

    Either way, Bards are a late bloomer. They take a while to build but eventually you'll have a singing, debuffing, attacking monster.
     
  5. blackjack

    blackjack Member

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    Yes. She is highly skilled in Magic Device. Could it be because she doesn't "know" the spell? ie It isn't in her "spellbook"

    The Cleric really improved @L5. So in order to gain +hit should I persure STR and continue to ignore DEX?
     
  6. Pygmy

    Pygmy Established Member Supporter

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    I don't recognise bards as being weak.

    What is your spell selection - you have spell focus and gsf enchantment - surely you have Tasha's uncontrollable hideous laughter and charm person at first level?

    Rage, heroism, miror image as your 2nd level choices.

    Deep slumber, charm monster, invisibility sphere, haste, displacement at level 3

    The bard makes everyone else much better rather than being strong themselves. They work very well with characters with one or more levels of barbarian because the rage spell stacks with barbarian rage - beware maintaining spell requires concentration but inspire courage affect continues.

    A combination of heroism and inspire competence makes the cleric better at commanding/turning undead and the thief better at his/her skill checks

    A bard goes very well with a half-orc Barb1/RogueX using a longspear with power att/cleave/great cleave + combat reflexes especially when you have a wizard to supply enlarge person and invisibility sphere

    If your spell casting is failing - remember to stick to light armour

    As for scrolls - I would say you should stick to playing as a sorcerer who focuses on enchantment charm who also has a whole lot of buffs - Tasha's hideous laughter is a save or die spell at first level what more do you want?

    I would advance charisma exclusively every four levels and get the cleric to craft a +6 cloak of charisma to get those save DCs up through the roof - as a side effect your wretched fireball scrolls will start to work more often too....
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  7. General Ghoul

    General Ghoul Established Member

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    I would not change a thing, keep them both as is. Some minor changes I would make:

    Give the bard the cleric's elven chain and elven shield, its the best armor for him. Since the cleric has a modest DEX, put him in heavy armor. Buy some half plate for now, and soon you will find some much better heavy armor. Keep the Weapon Focus: Club feat, as magic rods are considered clubs. Just go with a masterwork club from the cabinet maker for now, then soon you will have a few to choose from. About mid game you find a good magic club that I used until the end of the game.

    Later on you can make the cleric (and pretty much the rest of the team) a Belt of Giant Strength +6 which will help them all to hit and do more damage.

    Bards can use wands, so either buy or make him a fireball wand for some extra firepower. Bard should also start each encounter with a charm spell, which weakens the other team while strengthening your team. With a 16 DEX, a masterwork composite shortbow can do great damage as well.

    Bards are truly a support member, give him some healing spells, buffs, and some attack spells. Putting him in the elven chain and an elven shield, and with the abundance of good magic longswords found throughout the game, he can support the front-liners. With his spellcasting, he can spam Sound Bursts, or if needed, switch over to Cure Moderate Wounds. With a Charm Person, or Summon Monsters, he can bring in some meat shields. Or casting Mage Armor on your Wizard, so the wizards doesn't have to waste a spell slot and can cast another Magic Missile or Sleep.

    The cleric, in heavy armor, should be on or near the front line. The fact he isn't doing much damage is not that big a deal right now. He should tank, that is, he should jump out their and let the bad guys target him, as he has good HPs with that 18 CON, and his heavy armor means he is not hit that much anyway. He is close by to heal the fighters if they need it. Also clerics do have some good offensive spells at all levels. If nothing else, start with a Summon Monsters for a meat shield. SA for the ability gain at ever 4th level, I'd always go with WIS for a cleric, as it effects both the number of spells you get, and how powerful they are. It won't be long until you are crafting, so STR can be handled with a Giant belt.
     
  8. hellblazer

    hellblazer Established Member

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    Imeryds Run at fourth level is pretty tough. Enchantment is overpowered in TOEE because opponents are supposed to get +5 to charm saves in combat but don't. I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't cast a lower level charm monster spell than a hold monster spell other than the monster was immune to charm.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  9. blackjack

    blackjack Member

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    I thought this might be the case. I'm not sure where else to go. I've done the Bog, Moathouse, and Meadow. Should I be grinding somewhere with randoms?*Update* I picked up Otis and made it out of the first fight without a rez bill.

    I think I made a couple bad spell pix on the bard but overall it looks like she is an easy fix. After I make a few more changes to the cleric he should be a strong helper too.

    To everyone else thanks for spending the time on advice. I'll spend lots of time reading and rereading the info!
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  10. blackjack

    blackjack Member

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    More questions- What is "SA"?

    Which feat crafts the Giant Belt and is there a class or stat that helps with crafting? Currently I have my wizard set to be the crafter. However I don't know why, just read it somewhere they make great crafters. Why? Also I'm not understanding why my mage doesn't have a DC on his crafted wand but the Bard does?

    Is there any reason to hold on to gems, jewels, necklaces, etc.? Is there a best place to sell in nulb or hommlett?

    I have a helm +2 INT. I assume this should go on my WIZ but he is my appraiser so he has the glasses on. Is there a strong 2nd pick or should I just switch between the glass and +2 INT?

    What armor should my Dwarf Barbarian be in?

    ps. My Bard loves the new Elven Armor and shield but she continues to complain about how heavy everything is ;) WOMEN! STR is also an issue for the Cleric as he is MED Enc by the Half Plate. Is Med Enc okay (since he is a Dwarf) but is it okay for the human cleric or should this be fixed no matter what?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  11. Nightcanon

    Nightcanon Garrulous Halfling

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    Would agree that Imeryd's run is a tough ask at 4th level.
    More generally, beware multiclassing until you know exactly what you want from it. Your Clr2/Ftr2 has the same BAB (+3) as a pure cleric 4 would have, worse spells, same armour, and, given the availability of axes, no better weapons. With Primary casters you want your best spells available ASAP, which means singleclassing until higher levels. If you then want to be a frontline fighter, add fighter levels at this stage (4 will give access to weapon specialisation; 1 level of barb allows you to rage, a few rogue levels gives some sneak attack), once you can cast spells like Heal and Divine Power.
    Bards magnify the strengths of others in the party. My last bard cast a lot of Glitterdust, because it gave the rogue lots of targets to use sneak attacks on, but withiut a rogue it's less useful.

    Crafting: Belt of Giant strength requires Bulls Strength IIRC. Clerics actually make good crafters for this stuff as they automatically get access to all spells per level, include Bears endurance, Eagles splendour, Owls wisdom. Cats grace & Fox cunning I think need a wizard (poss druid?). In general, if you have lots of casters, share the crafting around to avoid delaying any one PCs level advancement too much.
    I think there are places that do offer marginally better prices for certan items, but TBH I tend to sell everything to the blacksmith as I can't be bothered dragging myself all.over the town.
     
  12. blackjack

    blackjack Member

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    I keep seeing "BAB" what is it and what does it do?
     
  13. Goshi3156

    Goshi3156 Dire Badger

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    BAB is Base Attack Bonus. Which is your attack roll without any modifiers. A Cleric's BAB at 4th level is actually +3 though not +4.

    You need to find out where the Temple of Elemental Evil is. There might be someone at Nulb who can help you.
     
  14. silo25

    silo25 Established Member

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    Base attack Bonus: (commonly referred to as BAB by the d20 community) is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level. Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes. A character gains a second attack per round when his base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different classes, such as for a multiclass character, stack.
    A character’s base attack bonus does not grant any more attacks after reaching +16, cannot be less than +0, and does not increase due to class levels after character level reaches 20th.
    A minimum base attack bonus is required for certain feats.
     
  15. Nightcanon

    Nightcanon Garrulous Halfling

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    Yep, BAB = base attack bonus: what you add to your D20 roll in addition to other modifiers to overcome the target's AC (armor class).
    A fighter (and Pal, Barb, Rng) has a BAB equal to his level, wiz and sorc equal to half their level, and clerics, druids, rogues and bards somewhere in between.
    Thus:
    Fighter4: BAB +4
    Cleric4: BAB+3
    Ftr2/Clr2: BAB +2, +1 for a total of +3
     
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