My ToEE playthrough notes

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by anatoliy, Jan 9, 2021.

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  1. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

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  2. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

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    I'm kind of curious what was done in the original post about character space. I tried setting the radius, but that doesn't seem to do anything.
     
  3. anatoliy

    anatoliy Established Member

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    There are PC protos, which could be overridden for desired radius. I also did it for all npc in my mods.

    But Enlarge problem still present.
     
  4. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

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    It would be a difficult task to tightly balance this module.

    3.5 adds many more bonuses: even a stat of 12 gets +1. Compare to the original where a 14 stat provided nothing (except some wisdom spells, carrying capacity, etc.) Basically there were no improvement to stats without gear and no feats to help with the class focus.

    So magical gear was the only way to improve.

    Current ToEE keeps all magic gear, but also has the 3.5 bonuses (+2 stat every 8 levels, 2-4 helper feats). Even without superhero builds, it starts unbalanced purely with lvl 1 feats and stats over 11.

    Difficulty options make the most sense (imho), and that seems to be the general modding plan.
     
  5. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

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    PCs weren't just unilaterally improved relative to monsters in 3rd edition.

    In 1E, an ogre has 4d8+1 HP, does 1d10 damage and has something like +5 to hit. In 3.5, an ogre has 4d8+11 HP, does 2d8+7 damage, and has +8 to hit.

    In 1E a hill giant has 8d8+2 (38) HP, does 2d8 damage, and has something like +6 to hit. In 3.5, it's 12d8+48 (102) HP, 2d8+10 damage and has +16 to hit. And they get to power attack, too.

    Monsters get feats as if their hit dice were levels (so 1 feat for 1HD, 2 feats for 3HD, 3 feats for 6HD...), and they get the usual benefits from having stats, which are often way higher than PCs can have.

    Anyhow, that's not to say that you can just copy the original module's stuff and everything will work perfectly. You'd need to test it out. But it's not super buff 3E players fighting 1E monster stats.
     
  6. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    I'd say AoOs are another new thing largely in the player's favor. Spells like grease and sleep now basically double your attack rate, in addition to their CC utility. And then there's the polearm+enlarge person bonanza of course.
    In theory these mechanics could also work in the NPCs' favor, but in practice the player takes better advantage of them in most situations.
     
  7. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

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    Also remember that the ToEE module is difficult by default. It's like Dark Souls - intentionally difficult and left to the players to determine how to make it easier for themselves to win by itemization, tactics, builds, etc.
     
  8. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

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    I was looking at enlarge last night and it seemed like it was programmed to only buff the party's reach. I guess maybe to avoid issues with leaking resources tracking the reach modification? So enemies couldn't take advantage of that even if they were programmed to.
     
  9. Erhog

    Erhog Member

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    For example, with currently available options in temple+:
    Party HP on level average, Point Buy 20(or any lower if still feel to powerfull), Enemy HP max, Slow leveling. There could be added no 18 for base stats at start and so on. Yes, there are still no options to add something above this, like +1 to all monsters roll or double their HP, etc but is that's really needed?
     
  10. anatoliy

    anatoliy Established Member

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    Sure, I do agree. I look for room for improvements, not problems.

    Completely disagree. D&D is quite moderate as roleplay rules. It's foremost combat setting.

    Every several levels PC party completely change their tactics. Analyzing Monster Manual one could spot dynamics of monster improvements and winning approach.

    It means that PC should improve one ability then another. In any case Player has to adapt and find wining tactics.

    Culmination of finding winning tactics is min maxing in nutshell.
     
  11. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

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    If you think the game is too easy as-is try Ironman. It showed me that even well-optimized, high rolling characters can still be surprised and die. It also showed me the engine was bugged enough to make this mode unstable, but you can sorta simulate this with self-discipline and normal mode play.
     
  12. anatoliy

    anatoliy Established Member

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    Gosh, how many times I have to say that I love the game the way it is))

    I play point buy 25, four pc, max ability 15, no cheats.

    I also have run ~ 60 sessions as DM. And I know that d&d in monster manual is easy as per CR. Moreover players want more difficulty.
     
  13. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

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    D&D 3.5 is 'balanced' in such a way as to allow a variety of difficulties and playstyles within its ruleset.
     
  14. Erhog

    Erhog Member

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    Yeah, I'm played the game, last playtroughs, as 25 point parties or solo high rolling character - both are was fun for me. But my 1st playtrough was with not that so optimal party and that was challenging as hell. Problem is, in my opinion, recreating 1st expirience is impossible and for any 1st timer the game is challenging even for party full of all 18s while for anyone with metaknowledge it's not so. I can't thinking for everyone, but for me toee is perfectly balacing for my needs with current configurable options. Real cheat is possibility to save/loading which will kill any balance changes anyway.
     
  15. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

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    According to the D&D 3.5 optimization community, the game is most balanced for levels 1-6 due to level 3 spells and characters normally getting no world-ending, game-rending abilities. For ToEE, level 3 spells - most notably fireball and call lightning - are when the game becomes notably faster and easier due to guaranteed damage on crowds at a time.
     
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