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Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Waterd103, Jul 7, 2009.
Oh no you had to mention survival.
Survival is awesome actually. I'm still working on my first ever run-through of ToEE. The only character in my party with survival is a Ranger 2/Rogue 2, and when I was on my way to see what was up in the orc cave Kenter Nevets told me about I randomly encountered two shadows. Since I had read this forum and decided that shadows were bad for business, I decided to click "Avoid" and went on my merry way to slaughter a bunch of orcs! Hooray for survival!
Yeah, but people (Waterd103 for one) must occasionally fail the dice roll, and sometimes people just play without adequate ranks in the survival skill. Live with the consequences of bad luck and/or poor decisions, you say? Maybe, but I still don't think you should have to pay that price in a RE.
ToEE is supposed to be free-form - free to do stupid things, free to play with weak parties, whatever. Inasmuch, you should have a reasonable expectation that you'll have a fair shot no matter how you play it, and insta-kills in random encounters just seem cheap to me in that regard.
Then that begs the question what else is the survival skill used for except to avoid combat in TOEE? It is not like you are fighting the elements in the game. Yes sometimes you do not make the dice roll.
A bear at level two or three may be tough, but 5 or 6 bears at level 7 or better becomes a cakewalk. The shadows at least would be a challenge. But I bow to the wisdom of the modders and will not bring the subject up again after this message
I was wondering about skills. Aparently, all of then have some kind of use in game terms, but I'm unable to get what exactly does Spot and Listen.
Spot is used to detect secret doors and traps. Spot is very useful to the rogue. Spot is also useful to the ranger and druid in looking for tracks. Listen can be used to try to discern if anything is behind a door or in a room. I haven't had much use for listen in TOEE.
Your rogue should have a high spot and disable device. The rogue cannot disable the trap if it is never spotted.
Spot does not detect hidden objects, search does. Spot detects sneaking rogues and similarly hidden PCs/NPCs. Search is very valuable for a rogue, but really except for a vague idea that it helps to not be ambushed in REs (which might be totally wrong,) I'm not sure what spot actually gains you since no rogues try to sneak up and backstab you in ToEE.
When you have a high enough spot score doesn't secret stuff just pop open without searching? Like the one on the main floor of the temple. It just pops up when you get close. Isn't spot part of that?
I thought spot helped you avoid getting caught "flat-footed" in combat.
Yep, although after Atari patch 2 it seems everyone is always flat-footed anyway. Also, can't remember atm but aren't spot and listen together supposed to do something special in ToEE?
Spot is used to detected hiding creatures or characters. Spot can also be used to read lips or feel the presence of an invisible creature (you still cannot see it) per 3.5 RAW.
But, I notice that when my spot is low for my rogue she is unable to detect traps even when my search is high. I brought her skill in spot up and I was able to detect and disarm traps. The floating words would say you detected a trap. Am I missing something?
I just wanted to say one thing about the shadows as I have encountered them before - I don't recall the level. Same for the random will o' the wisps (3). They were definitely dangerous encounters especially the latter group.
All I can say is that if there is a TPK, reload or restart. Don't take the thrill of victory away from all of us who can eventually learn how to succeed. Besides, the thing I enjoy most about this game and others is getting my ass kicked.
Bring it on GA, I'm ready for your retorts.
I thought Listen was supposed to play a big part in not getting caught flat-footed in combat? At least I've read that before about ToEE, somewhere...
As far as I remember from my pnp games, search is designed for finding hidden things like traps and secret doors out of combat, when you have time to go over the room with a fine-toothed comb.
As for spot, so far the only use I have found for it is catching Furnok cheating at cards and dice at the Welcome Wench. Your spot check opposes a sleight of hand check, or a hide check, and if successful, you spot the deception or the hiding individual.
It seems like it should play a part in getting caught flat-footed in combat based on the entry for the spot skill in my 3.5 Player's Handbook:
"Use this skill to notice bandits waiting in ambush, to see a rogue lurking in the alley, to see through a disguise, to read lips, or to see the monstrous centipede in the pile of trash."
Check: ...The Dungeon Master may call for Spot checks to determine the distance at which an encounter begins.
Action: Varies. Everytime you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner (for example, when someone tries to sneak past you while hidden, or you move into a new area), you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.
I'm not a programmer, but it doesn't feel to me that's how it works in ToEE. I feel like my party and the enemies always spot each other (for all intents and purposes) at the same instant, and initiative determines who reacts first. There seems to be no such thing as a "true" suprise round, where each member of the party is allowed a partial action before initiatives are rolled and the opposition is "suprised" by the party.
Surprise round is done critter by critter, not by party: so a few enemies and a few PCs may get a surprise round, I think.
Spot and Listen are used along with Survival when determining if you spot enemies on the road and distance too, I think. Probably not a perfect script but Cerulean already had a good long fiddle with it to improve it.
Spot and Listen are used by enemies to detect sneaking characters: its an opposed check. Enemies don't sneak so that part is irrelevant to PCs.