Missing Weapon Proficiencies

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Shadowblade2, Jan 6, 2006.

Remove all ads!
  1. maalri

    maalri Immortal

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    1,129
    Likes Received:
    2
    Yeah- but the Cleaver gets a tremendous threat range too- for a one-handed small weapon doing critical hits like crazy- I'd say it is at LEAST semi-uber!!

    But yeah- leave it.

    BTW whats the difference between Fragarach (doesn't that sound like Fraggle Rock?) and Scather? They seem the same to me.
     
  2. Shadowblade2

    Shadowblade2 Established Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    But which is it? You can buy single axes and hand axes and I don't want to make a mistake!

    Also, I've not seen a Cleaver yet, but Fruella had a Meisterwerk Great Cleaver which the mod changes to one-handed axe proficiency (which really ought to be a one-handed Battle Ax for a Cleaver, not a hand ax - they are both one-handed but the hand ax can also be thrown, IIRC. In fact, I think the Battle Ax can be used one or two-handed, like a Bastard sword, but doesn't need an exotic weapon proficiency).

    But considering that the damage of a Great Cleaver is the same as a Glaive and it has a 20% critical threat range, the Great Cleaver really ought to be a two-handed weapon and use the two-Handed Great Ax proficiency. Like the Great Ax, it suffers only in that it doesn't have the reach of a pole-arm like a Glaive. I don't think it really compares with a katana.

    Actually, better yet would be new, unique proficiencies, otherwise you get double Weapon Focus etc for the price of one. So If I can't find another Great Cleaver I' can dual wield with an Ax.

    I saw a Barabrian-Fighter build posted that had two of these things and used ITWF etc, but I'm starting to think that it's a rules-breaker and a campaign buster. TWO Great Cleavers whizzing around can't be right...

    ~
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2006
  3. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2004
    Messages:
    1,653
    Likes Received:
    4
    It's thoroughly broken. Maybe not as broken as Fragrach or Scather, but it's better than any other weapon in the game by a long shot. I just don't grasp the mindset that leads to complaints of "The game's too easy" while people are running around dual-wielding the ultimate swords that never miss, or the ridiculously over-powered cleavers that they've crafted the crap out of. Well, no kidding it's going to be easy if you do that.
     
  4. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,151
    Likes Received:
    1
    The cleavers had to be some kind of joke, IMO. Only great ugly bugbear chicks & that old battle-axe Fruella wielding them.

    Where I live there's an expression about "getting you ass cut" which seems to apply to these bi-otches.
     
  5. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    12,661
    Likes Received:
    354
    Probably are a joke, ya... one step up from equipping them with rolling pins.

    To settle this, the Great Cleaver proto regards is as a

    HANDAXE

    all weapon focus dealies should be handled accordingly. My first TWF in the game was a ranger with Fruella's toy in one hand and a +3 icy-burst hand-axe in the other. Much fun was had by all, except for Fruella who mouldered inside a toad outside the moathouse.
     
  6. Shadowblade2

    Shadowblade2 Established Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    On second thoughts, a Great Cleaver probably has a better recovery time than a two-handed war ax and, in 2E terms, a lower WSF and would be less clumsy to wield and balanced very differently, requiring a different combat style.

    But I can't see it as a hand ax. In terms of ease of use and combat style, it's more like a cross between a bastard sword and a broad-sword version of a katana or falchion.

    As far as it being a joke, it IS a joke if one-handed.

    ~
     
  7. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    12,661
    Likes Received:
    354
    Its a meat cleaver. It does massive damage because meat cleavers have heavy blades designed for chopping through bone etc, as opposed to any knife-style kitchen thing which would be designed for slicing (and can stab well too). If you're in a kitchen and have to grap an implement, the meat cleaver is clearly the damage dealing cream-of-the-crop (though not necessarily the easiest to weild).

    But its a meat cleaver. Ie. one-handed. You ever seen a two-handed meat cleaver?

    Lets not get carried away by the 'great' moniker, the model is clearly no bigger than a normal meat cleaver and nowhere near big enough for a two-handed weapon. A two-handed version would be the guillotine blade, now also available thanks to modders efforts.

    Edit: Just noticed you mentioned the guillotine blade in your opening post. Fyi, the guillotine blade is (for purposes of the game) a

    GREATSWORD.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2006
  8. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is no better than a +1 Keen Bastard sword. Well, okay, it is slightly better, in that you don't have to take a feat to wield it one handed, but at the same time it has a smaller threatened zone than a bastard sword, so that evens it out a little. Remember, even though it is called a Masterwork Great Cleaver it is in actuality a +1 Keen Great Cleaver. I wouldn't say it's much better than the +1 Holy Longsword you can also pick up in Homlett.
     
  9. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2004
    Messages:
    1,653
    Likes Received:
    4
    Not quite.

    Here's the stats for the Masterwork Great Cleaver in the protos.tab:

    Weapon Crit. Hit Multiplier: x3 (Bastard Sword is x2)
    Weapon Crit Hit Threat Range: 19-20. (Same as Bastard Sword, but this is before Keen is applied. So it has the same threat range as a keen bastard sword. Weapons in 3.5 never have a x3 multiplier and a crit range above 20 unless they're exotic. With keen it's possible to have a weapon with a X3 multiplier and a range of 19-20, but that's it for martial weapons.)

    The Great Cleaver does the same damage as a bastard sword, with the same threat range, but a higher damage multiplier. It's a better weapon than a bastard sword and doesn't cost you a feat to use one-handed. In my eyes that's broken.

    The holy longsword follows the normal weapons rules and is the reward for the most time-consuming quest in the game. (Probably way more than the player should get for it, but I doubt a lot of people would bother going through the effort to marry Meleny if it wasn't for her dowery.)

    If you spent the money and XP required to add keen to the holy longsword or holy to the great cleaver, the great cleaver would blow the longsword away, hands down. That's not right.
     
  10. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    12,661
    Likes Received:
    354
    You have no idea what sort of sick, sick fiends we are.
     
  11. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess you and I just have different ideas of what constitutes "thoroughly broken". To me the Cleaver is just not quite rules compliant. Fragarach is broken. The Sword of Cahoem is thoroughly broken (but then, it was meant to be, and is only available through the console).
     
  12. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    3,636
    Likes Received:
    1
    hey the Sword of Cahoem is only +3, its the other magical ablity it has that makes it fun - for friends and foes alike
     
  13. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    12,661
    Likes Received:
    354
    I agree with Blue, the Cleaver is just overpowered, not broken.

    And they get used against you later in the game so it sorta evens out, sorta.

    I also agree with the following comment by HeavyDan.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2006
  14. Heavydan85

    Heavydan85 Drinking Champion

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2005
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fragarach isn't broken it is sweet...lol
     
  15. grinner666

    grinner666 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pffft. Only a DM would call Fragrach broken. Players ... what player would object to such a sweet weapon? Besides, it's obviously an Artifact. ALL artifacts are, by their very nature, broken.

    And if the game's DESIGNERS decided to put it in, who are we, poor ignorant players that we are, to call it "broken"?

    Heeheeheeheehee ... :largeclap

    So just to make sure I have it right ... if my rogue 8/fighter 1 takes Improved Critical/Handaxe next level it doubles the threat range on the great cleaver? :dead:
     
Our Host!