Let's Talk About Hickory Branch

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by Gaear, Mar 25, 2008.

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  1. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    That's nothing short of spectacular, Gaear. Can't wait to see the end product!
     
    Sitra Achara, Jul 18, 2008
    #106
  2. Shiningted

    Shiningted I changed this damn title, finally! Administrator

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    Ok, found the map I was looking for - doesn't really settle anything, but its a contribution.
     

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    Shiningted, Jul 18, 2008
    #107
  3. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Absolutely. That's largely what I've done with the ground textures, in fact.

    btw, I was thinking of working up some ToEE 'texture packs' for modders to use along those lines - grass, dirt, gravel, etc. - the basic stuff that everybody needs. Grass is readily available on the scrub RE maps, although non-repetetive looking dirt would require more work (because most of the dirt available to us in ToEE is in narrow strips on roads and such, which when simply cloned creates the 'pattern' effect). The same could be done for dungeon walls and that sort of thing, if you were willing to invest a lot more time and effort.

    There seems to be a conflict with that and Ted's map above though (which says easterly forest = Gnarley). I'm not trying to be contentious about this, just consistent. Krunch may well be wrong, but he has created precedent, so if we go with Welkwood we'd have to necessarily change krunch's references too. Also, much like with the Moathouse stairs debate, I think we're obligated to abide by ToEE the CRPG first before ToEE the PnP module. If Ted's map above is 'official' from Troika (it has the ToEE logo, for example, though I've never seen the map myself), and if Troika believed that the Gnarley Forest was east of Hommlet, then we should follow along with that imo.

    Personally I wish it could be firmly established that the forest in question was the Welkwood, because I like the name.

    I agree, it shouldn't be far off at all. It seems wrong to send players off on forays beyond the range of even the temple early on in the game.

    Bear in mind we're talking about two different things here now - HB 1 and the new mod. As far as I'm concerned, HB 1 doesn't need any plot modifications, because doing so sets you off on the 'not krunch's mod anymore' path, like I found out with the new mod.

    The main weakness with HB 1 as I saw it - and in fact the only truly unacceptable one - was the low-res graphics. If TotWC is going to be plot-lite and battle-heavy, the original HB 'plot,' such as it is, would probably suffice. Okay, maybe with just a pinch of backstory. ;)

    I see no need to connect HB 1 and 'Welkwood Horror' in any way, incidentally, if indeed they're going to be separate mods. :shrugno:

    btw, thanks for the compliments too, guys. I take great satisfaction in fixing that kind of stuff up. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2008
    Gaear, Jul 18, 2008
    #108
  4. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    On the big map that came with the Greyhawk expansion the Gnarley Forest is due east of Verbobonc. Welkwood is due south, so Nulb is about on the border of the two. There are no border lines, but Nulb is certaing closer to Welkwood than Gnarley. Going east/se fron Hommlet would probably be Welkwood. So using Welkwood would be fine for the general location.
    I still have that expansion pack and the maps are like new. I love Greyhawk. My all-time favorite.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2008
    wizgeorge, Jul 19, 2008
    #109
  5. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Nulb is virtually surrounded by the Gnarley Forest. It is many leagues away from the Welkwood. The forested portion of the Kron Hills are the border.
     

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    Lord_Spike, Jul 19, 2008
    #110
  6. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    @ ALL Re - -Greyhawk maps

    I believe Ted's map is the PnP AD&D 2E T1-4, which is one of the few maps I can't find. The link I posted matches the 1983 release of Greyhawk, which I believe is the same as the previous release (which I have but cannot find). As far as I know, there is no "CRPG ToEE" map referencing either name. BTW, the dlg files seem split as to calling the region near Hommlet the Gnarley Forest or the Gnarley Woods.

    I think the maps support either choice we make. It's not like borders and maps don't change over time. I don't think our choosing one way or another

    --thearioch
     
    thearioch, Jul 19, 2008
    #111
  7. Shiningted

    Shiningted I changed this damn title, finally! Administrator

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    Thankyou Lord Spike.

    Gnarley Woods is probably an error on my part in the dlg files.
     
    Shiningted, Jul 19, 2008
    #112
  8. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Advice for TheArioch:

    You're trying to fit into the milieu, not make it unrecognizable. Maps & history matter, especially to those who want to play an authentic piece set in the WoG. Have respect for the things the players will notice. Otherwise, call it something else...because that is what it will be if you change it beyond what's already gone forward & accepted. Nulb is where it is; Hickory Branch can be anyplace - but you'd best make it accessible through means which players will accept, be it boots, flying carpet, or magic portal. It's funny how "history" matters in a fantasy world, but there you go. We're nothing if not sticklers for our own sense of what we remember fondly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2008
    Lord_Spike, Jul 19, 2008
    #113
  9. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    @ Spike

    Not to be rude, but WTF, over?

    I cited maps and modules as the basis for my position (the Welkwood). My position is not a *choice*, it is my well thought opinion based on considering all evidence presented. Ted has cited conflicting sources for his position (Gnarley Forest). Gaear advocates elevating the crpg over PnP, but the crpg is pretty much silent on this matter. Krunch may have had a basis, but I haven't seen it argued.

    I think (not believe) that the evidence paints a picture of Hommlet/Nulb being very near the "border" between the two wooded areas. If we accept that Hommlet/Nulb is near the border, and that the cartographic data is sufficiently inaccurate, *then* I think we are justified for choosing based on what we think is best for the story. I would hardly characterize that position as disrespectful of the milieu.

    Remember Hatfield v. McCoy? There is no Google Greyhawk, Oerth Egineers Corp, a GPS system, a property recordation system, etc. Small distances blur very easily on maps with scales accurate for long distances.

    For example, per T1, Hommlet is only 6 miles NE of Hommlet, but a lot of maps are showing it as 30+ miles. Also, per T1, the Gnarley Forest is SE of Hommlet. I would hardly characterize my preference for the original materials as not being a stickler for my own sense of what I remember fondly.

    --thearioch
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2008
    thearioch, Jul 19, 2008
    #114
  10. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    It was only offered as advice; take it or leave it. I've provided the maps which display clearly where it is for all of you. What you do now is yours to decide. But, anyone who can read a map can clearly see the difference between 6 miles & 6 hexes. My point was that even people who can accept all the aspects of heroic fantasy will take you to task for saying & placing things where they do not belong. Precisely how a pig can fly is easy for them to understand; why Nulb is 180 miles from where all the known Greyhawk lore they know & love places it...well, that's unforgivable.
     
    Lord_Spike, Jul 20, 2008
    #115
  11. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    Here is a map showing where Spike and I said Hommlet is. As I mentioned, I didn't have access to the b&w maps Spike used when I made my estimate. I'm not objecting to Spike's placement of Hommlet, I just don't see how it matters -- the Gnarley forest appears to be NE of Hommlet, and Welkwood to the SE, which puts Hommlet where I said I think it is -- near the border of the two forests.

    --thearioch
     

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    thearioch, Jul 20, 2008
    #116
  12. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    I have a set of maps of Greyhawk corrected and updated(supposedly) that where in Dungeon magazine. You can't tell where Gnarley ends and Welkwood starts, but it clearly shows Hommlet in the Kron Hills and Nulb on the edge of the Gnarley The Welkwood is se of Hommlet. The location of Nulb is off in the T1-4 module. It's not that far ne.
     
    wizgeorge, Jul 20, 2008
    #117
  13. Shiningted

    Shiningted I changed this damn title, finally! Administrator

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    I'll just add the map I posted (which Lord Spike reposted, since it was he sent it to me in the first place) is, as it says, from the booklet that accompanies the module. I'm no sure that it is 2E as you said, Arioch - I'd bet Lord Spike's stuff is first edition. While I doubt E.G.G. drew the pix himself, he did do both the Greyhawk Gazeteer and T1-4, so it seems reasonable the map was correct in regarding Gnarley Forest as extending as far as it does around Nulb and toward Hommlet, which the large scale Greyhawk maps, admittedly, are ambiguous about.
     
    Shiningted, Jul 20, 2008
    #118
  14. GuardianAngel82

    GuardianAngel82 Senior Member

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    Go to the top map of post 110, the only one that has Verbobonc, Homlett and Nulb on it. Go to the hex with Verbobonc on it. Count 2 hexes se and 1 s. Do the same on the larger scale map. This seems to put Homlett in the Kron Hills, Gnarley Forest to the east of Homlett and the Welkwood to the sse of Homlett, off the ToEE map. Making 2 of my suggestions somewhat questionable. Timmy was Here Just a Minute Ago is also no longer valid either, as we have found him. Most of him.
     
    GuardianAngel82, Jul 20, 2008
    #119
  15. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    Actually, anywhere in the general region is a good spot for any kind of setting. Call it what you like using generic Greyhawk names and it would be cool. Exact, detailed accuracy really isn't critical in any way. It's the adventure that counts. The Gnarley and Welkwood are great spots with everything you can imagine. Want a challenge? Try going from one end of the Gnarley to the other and see how long you survive. You'd need a really big can of whoopass.
     
    wizgeorge, Jul 20, 2008
    #120
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