Killed St Cuthbert without cheating

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by HeJason, Dec 9, 2007.

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  1. ithildur

    ithildur Established Member

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    Not to rain on anyone's parade, but imo Fragarach or Scather is a rather ridiculous item to even exist in the game and be available. No DM that has any idea what he's doing would give out such a weapon.

    I certainly hope nothing like that is given out in the upcoming Kotbl module.
     
  2. blackfly

    blackfly Established Member

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    You must remember that Fragarach and Scather are throwbacks to PnP AD+D. They are essentially artifacts and not meant for "mass consumption" like a +2 Longsword.

    If you want to blame anything, blame Wizards of the Coast and their retarded myopic views on how D+D is supposed to be played. Granted, I am old school, but D+D 3.5 is NOTHING like the game I knew and when we played (and when Frag and Scather came into being) there was NOTHING like AoO. All the swords allowed was a guaranteed attack on an enemy at the END of a round, but it was guaranteed, in addition to any other bonuses due to magic. I am sorry, but the 3.5 game most here might be use to is NOT D+D as a lot of us know it. In fact, I would call it a new game.

    But the fact is the swords are there, and really, with a GOOD party, should not be used. If the alignment angle is played right no GOOD party should get Fragarach anyway, only Scather at best, and evil parties would be out to destroy the sword in any event.

    I find HeJasons' party ridiculous in any event. How could a CE rogue ever get a CG Elmo, who is actually a spy for good, to join is party and then WILLINGLY help him destroy a GOOD god? I find more than just the swords in gameplay to be screwed up here. I admit TOEE has many holes in them, but I think in the final analysis I find the faults mainly to be with the 3.5 rules, not the items themselves. D+D gets revamped to ensure continuing sales, not better gameplay, and the rules thus have to have something new to ensure a reason to buy it. Without this logic, the old modules (of which I am a fan) would remain as good today as when they came out. You don't make something that cannot be changed and lose sale viability.

    I myself could see the idea of killing Iuz, as he is evil and should be vanquished, but I cannot see Cuthbert. In fact, I recommend most here to read a first edition of Deities and Demigods to see how a god should REALLY be played. In fact, if most DMs had the game down right, most parties would have a hard time with a Red Dragon, let alone an Immortal.

    And lets be honest. Most play this game KNOWING Frag and Scather are available, and most equip a CG fighter to use these swords. Why in fact, my game right now has a Half Orc fighter who is proficient in Bastard swords and dual weilding. I wonder where this is going.......

    Perhaps a quick fix would be to make Frag and Scather Greatswords so that you cannot have both on the same character, and who has 2 characters with Greatswords? Unlikely by design, but I suppose if it was changed then everyone would.

    I go on at length about how I lament the game is not really set up for evil parties, and here is a perfect example of what I mean. Evil parties cannot nor would not use Frag or Scather (both are needed for killing Iuz or Cuthbert) thus making killing either a REAL challenge. Evil parties have no such equal to Frag and Scather and cannot even make them. There was nothing about AoO in old D+D, so you can blame the new economic machine for that, but should an evil party ever face Cuthbert and the game was played right, he would smite them all dead then deal with Iuz on his own terms.

    But this is just a game, and we cannot take it too seriously. Me, as a DM, I took it a little easy knowing that it kept players interested and around for a time. If played really to the hilt I do not think most would find D+D too much fun. A vampire, if played right, would wipe out most average parties. (Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth comes to mind)- in fact, the last time I played this module I told the players up front it was going to be a challenge and half the party died; 2 at the end. In TOEE, the game is made such the characters are essentially gods by the time the game ends, and despite the hard work of the modders, it seems to me that by the end the players are even more powerful due to more levels, magic and experience.

    I suppose the alternative is not to play, but you could always play vanilla TOEE. But how much fun would that be.
     
  3. Dellik

    Dellik Fallen

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    Ok.. I cant help it, and I dont mean this as a attack on blackfly(or HeJason forthat mater) But.....

    Lets start by pointing out that using suggestion to add a npc that doesnt normally join the party *is* cheating, due to having to exploit a bug. Now that thats out of the way...

    Now as for Blackfly's assertion that all 3.5 is, is a weakening of the game to improve sales, I couldnt disagree more.. I started playing AD&D with the beginning of 2nd Ed... wich was a vast playability improvement over the tideous flow charts and constant stopage of gameplay due to manual confirmations that was 1st ed. And even with said vast improvements was still a excersize(sp) in (mho) making the average intelligence person feel intimidated. with non-weapon profs being practically never used, and class roles being cast in stone, it lacked even the slightest feel of realism, to the point where the characters in the novels that were *based* on the system, are effectively un-reproduceable...(wich shows that even the people who played/wrote about such things felt the game system wasnt really what they needed)

    things like AoO's are a much needed bit of realism I would have to say, just for startes.. something older editions simply ignored..

    Lets from there look at "A evil party would be detrmined to destroy them" why would a party motivated by self interest be motivated to destroy something so valuble? evil isnt out for the 'greater evil' (much like the good isnt often concerned with the 'greater good' generally inso much as they are concerned with the good of the moment, wich is why so much evil tends to be done in the name of Good...

    Oh, and on a side note, why on earth would you want to dual weild frag.scath unless you like ctds, or lower in general damage..? having them both equiped doesnt gen double free AoO's, just one, with the occasional ctd.... and the 1 free attack(2 with imp two weapon) doesnt make up for the damage you will gain from two handing one of em... (the 1.5x str bonus plus the 2x power attack bonus will be MUCH higher in the end, then dual wielded..)

    And, last but not least, unless cuthberts AC got jacked up *again* you dont even have to be using one of the two, to hit him... a level 11-14 ish fighter should be swinging (all added up) at better than a +24 to hit, and last I remember, cutty's ac was only like a 35 ish...need good rolls to hit, same with his Sr, a good roll, with the properly feated caster means damage galore... and why not, a god's avatar is aprox cr 21... and a party of 4-6 level 14's isnt far off that. at that point your talking about the top, cream of the crop, for just about any world, not the very best it has to offer im sure, But all of them at that point would effectively be legends. making it exactly what it is, a tough, but potenally doable battle.

    I guess you struck a nerve, cause it seems to me you feel that if it isnt effectively impossible to do, it must not be fun... just food for thought.
     
  4. ithildur

    ithildur Established Member

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    Major thread hijacking alert...

    my point simply is that a weapon like Fragarach or Scather is ridiculously overpowered for a game that originally was meant for lvl 10 tops. Artifacts exist, but how many lvl 10's should have access to them in a well run campaign? What kind of a campaign has lvl 10s - 14s running around with artifacts gained through dubious means defeating avatars of a major god? Not one's I'd consider worth playing in.

    I will reiterate, it's simply my preference, but I sincerely hope that Kotb does not have anything nearly as ridiculous as those weapons.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2007
  5. blackfly

    blackfly Established Member

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    I appreciate your post, and I understand where you are coming from. I started playing AD+D 25 years ago, and I vividly remember when Unearthed Arcana coming out was a major deal. I am aware that as time changes so do most things but.....

    The game of D+D today, and thus what TOEE is based on, is completely absurd to me as an old school gamer. One of my characters in TOEE is a Dwarf Fighter, level 9, and on a critical hit with his Dwarven Waraxe mettes out about 55 hp of damage. I cannot recall, unless it was an extreme circumstance, any weapon on a natural d20 roll create that in my games. And if you read the old books, it CLEARLY states that if you did not like something then don't use it. I did not use the weapon vrs. AC type charts, nor did I use a lot of the charts that bogged down the battle sequence. I preferred THACO, as it made math easy on any AC. The whole idea of AoO was never intended for weapons like Frag or Scather, nor was the idea of critical hits (which makes the game more ridiculous in that certain weapons become sure killers with insane crit ranges). In my games, a natural roll of 20 was automatic max double damage. Thats it. Has the monster stats or abilities increased as much as the player characters? No. Unless the monster is a NPC with similar stats and abilities.

    The new version, and thus TOEE, is simply to make it more appealing and, frankly, easy for the player to enjoy and advance in level and see such success. It took a LONG time, of playing and trial, to get a character to 15 level in the original AD+D game of which I am familiar. The idea of specialization was only new, and was welcomed (it made sense) but the idea of inflicting 50hp+ 3 chances in 20 is not AD+D. In fact, the only thing I did allow was an Assassin to kill with one shot as allowed by the class rule. Speaking of which, my game allowed unlimited level limits for Races other than human simply because most characters never got that high. I allowed Elven Paladins, Dwarven Paladins..... simply based on the fact that it worked.

    Anyone who plays AD+D or D+D with any form of rigidity is missing the point of the game. But the new rules make it easy to inflict mass damage, kill with one hit and not give any chance at all with things like AoO. Look at it this way: how can AoO possibly work? IF you are fighting a gnoll, for example, and another moves into your threat range you get a AoO. Right. But what about the gnoll you were working on? When your attention is diverted to the new gnoll, does the previous one you were concentrating on not get an AoO as you let your guard down? Doesn't happen, does it. The idea is flawed in that it only works one way. It SHOULD go both ways but doesn't. Better? for the PC yes as it makes it more like an abbatoire but not really for game challenge.

    We will each see things differently. I have not read 3.5 at all, and found even with the 2nd addition to not really like the direction AD+D was going. I am old school and that is that.

    Or what about my Dwarven Figther with extreme specialty with the Spiked Chain? Where on Earth does the idea of Great Cleave come from? Is THIS fair? My character can slaughter 10 soldiers with 15 to 20hp each without a SINGLE attack from the soldiers using Great Cleave. Fair indeed. I cannot see how, in any way, Great Cleave carries the spirit of the game with it. Talk about one sided. And crafting weapons? You must be kidding. The Holy Sword, in old AD+D was the most powerful sword a Paladin could hope to find. Now you can get a sword to be +5 with Frost, Holy, Shock and Alignment damage all in one. With such weapons on crits I have had my characters inflict up to 100hp in a hit. Not very fair.

    I agree it is a game and thus should be fantasy, but I just agree that TOEE does get too easy after a certain point and it is a fault of not only the 3.5 game but the original game writers themselves for this. I play TOEE, and love it but it does not mean if I were to get back to AD+D I would implement it.

    If I did and my players insisted, then all is fair in love and war and the monsters would get EQUAL treatment. Could you imagine a Vampire with Great Cleave, maxed out feats......
     
  6. blackfly

    blackfly Established Member

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    I agree. The fact is: TOEE ends as it is a GAME, not a module. If this was a D+D universe then perhaps Scather would be stupid, but then again, maybe not. I think getting Scather so easily is dumb. I mean you WORK to get the Frostbrand. I myself do not lament the fact Scather or Frag is there, as the game is so short, but it does make for a easy time once you get it.

    Perhaps Gaear a future mod could be that ONLY Scather is available the way it was intended. But Troika does have to be faulted in that if Frag is there and written in then people are going to find a way to get it. In fact, the only way to get both is totally contrary to Good aligned parties, and only GOOD parties truly see the full benefits of Frag and Scather themselves.

    Perhaps the swords could become entities and refuse to be used, have a curse.... just ideas. I myself use them as they are available, and most out there would agree that characters are made based on the fact these swords are available NOT making characters that are interesting.
     
  7. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    Seems like Prince Thrommel's .dlg could be modified so he never joins and teleports out at the end of the conversation. That way nobody can steal Fragarach, unless you kill him right there, but only an evil party would do that. Keep the Scather reward tho. Put a maxed-out hill giant guard in the ante-chamber and replace the cube with a similar criiter. That would make the rescue a little more difficult.
     
  8. blackfly

    blackfly Established Member

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    I think this would work. For LE parties the goal IS to kill Thrommel and take Frag back to Turuko. Everyone else that is good would help him out of the dungeon, and evil parties would kill him, I guess (and take their lumps). My point is that you cannot simply blame everything on two swords when you can have characters maxed out and simply kill virtually everything in their sight with little or no damage themselves, which, in fact, I am going to do right now.
     
  9. HeJason

    HeJason JK2 Deity

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    Sorry to cause so much trouble. I was just trying to show how to beat Cuthbert with out cheating (using the console, editing characters, ect..) None of the guys I used suggestion on where even involved in killing Cuthbert, so their is no point to argue that so called bug. All you need is a cleric to heal you, a magic user to stoneskin the crap out of you, and a chaotic good fighter. So basically, you can kill every single creature in the game with that group when you get high enough level. I suggest others to join to make the game interesting. I would not consider using suggestion as a cheat, unless you consider bunny hopping in quake3 cheating also. It is part of the game the way it is programed, dont call me a cheater cuz the programers did nothing about it. You can even do more like pick pocketing burne and selling his stuff back to him and pick pocket him again over and over again ,and get a small fortune doing that. Is it cheating cuz burne is that stupid to buy his own gems back over and over again? I could tell you an awesome way to make a crapload of money so fast (1000000pp) without the console (with out cheating) because the AI sucks, but that would be a huge spoiler. Does that make it cheating cuz the NPCs are retarded. The game is shipped that way, I play it that way, Im not typing codes in or hex editing the PCs. Im just playing the game the way it was shipped (with the co8 mods of course) Heck, I have even suggested the white dragon join my party (thats pretty cool by the way, but nobody will talk to you) If you dont like it dont use it. Also I did kill the prince to get his sword rather than just take it from him and then have him reward me for rescuing him and giving me scather too. As was said earlier, you would do more damage using scather 2 handed than duel wielding scather and fragarach. Also about Cuthberts AC, Try doubling 35, as his AC is more like 70..
     
  10. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Well I was working on a Thrommel mod, but I got distracted :(

    Scather is in the original module, as it is in the game - a reward for rescuing Thrommel. A sword designed for walloping evil would be far better in the hands of high-level adventurers than sitting in an armoury, I reckon.

    AD&D had AoOs, iirc. If you moved away from a battle, the other guys got a free whack at you: likewise if you cast a spell in melee. Certainly happened in the campaigns I played, certainly happened in Pool of Radiance. Later versions of D&D just sensibly codified what were, in AD&D, sometimes erratic rules. Not everyone is going to like everything, but I think the modern game has core rules that work better, albiet it has other things that are a bit silly imho (like crafting at 5th level).

    EDIT: HeJason, out of curiosity, how did Ronald react to all this?
     
  11. HeJason

    HeJason JK2 Deity

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    Dont know, I assasinated him ;)
     
  12. blackfly

    blackfly Established Member

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    WHO assassinated him? The assassin, your rogue or elmo? I am only wondering in what dialogue came up.

    By the way, dual wielding bastard swords is awesome in the hands of a ridiculously strong fighter. Since you can't get Frag or Scather until late, the idea of dual wielding makes the fighter worth 2, since taking the right feats makes 4 attacks a round. He has a 16 Dex, for a +3 bonus that coupled with mithral plate or Dwarven plate makes him pretty hard to hit, along with a mithral buckler, ring of pro +3....... So it is not like I did this JUST to plan out for Scather and Frag, but it gives me a fighter with a real punch, especially on crits. Very effective; highly recommended to try (I recommend using Half Orcs).
     
  13. HeJason

    HeJason JK2 Deity

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    Had my assasin with greater invisibility buffed, sneak up behind him and cut him down. Invisible thiefs are bad ass and always sneak attack/crippling strike.
     
  14. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Ummm I'm talking about Ronald, the cleric NPC in your party? How did he react to Iuz showing up, St Cuthbert getting killed etc?
     
  15. HeJason

    HeJason JK2 Deity

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    Oh, that ronald, I thought you were talking about the ruler of verbobonc, I dont remember if he did anything.
     
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