Is this game supposed to be insanely hard?

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by flamewolf393, Jan 24, 2013.

Remove all ads!
  1. General Ghoul

    General Ghoul Established Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    953
    Likes Received:
    6
    I think you can awaken a sleeping character from the radial menu. Only shows up if you click on a sleeping person.
     
  2. zugschef

    zugschef Established Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2012
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    0
    the encounter with the balor was the single worst part of vanilla toee.

    encouter - round 1: balor casts blasphemy, party dies (unless of course, you get lucky and SoD him before he gets to act).
    -> reload until the program randomly decides that the balor is in a drunken stupor and does not cast blasphemy or summon another balor who casts blasphemy.

    who ever came up with that idea was a fucking idiot. you simply CANNOT win this encounter without heavy metagaming. you just fucking can't.

    funny fact: the battle with the hezrou is not all that different. it's just that the chance that you have to reload is that much smaller, in fact in 65% of the cases he can't just fucking kill you, but in the 35% he can, he skullfucks you in your daze with his buddy hezrou he summoned in round 1 (unless of course, you get lucky and SoD him before he gets to act).
     
  3. The Royal Canadian

    The Royal Canadian Established Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    741
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi GG
    You are correct. You can "Slap someone awake" by selecting "Deal NonLethal Damage" (from the "Options" submenu in the "Attack" menu) and then using "Full Attack" on the sleeping PC or NPC.
    The Royal Canadian
     
  4. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Established Member Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    377
    Likes Received:
    8
    Shouldn´t Blasphemy only be deadly against non-evil partymembers and then only if they are more than 5 levels below the Balor?

    Using Blasphemy is the standard tactic right from the 3.5 Monsters Manual for Round 1 if the Balor does not feel seriously threatened...
     
  5. Al Ronnfeldt

    Al Ronnfeldt Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes. The CO8 has helped a lot, but it's supposed to be very hard. Two Reasons:

    I went to a forum that hosted Gary Gygax at a convention, and he told us that he meant it to be really hard. He said that, if a PC didn't die every couple of games, the GM wasn't doing his job right. Also, he said that a person should go through 20-30 characters before one lived long enough to be "survivable". He nearly bit a guy's head off for suggesting that PCs get maximum hit points. He liked it when a fighter rolled a 1 for HP and died immediately. Also, everything in D&D is very random. He misses that saving roll for Tasha's, he's dead. You miss that saving roll vs. hold person, and you're dead. If those spiders in the Decko grove get initiative and web everyone, fight's over.

    Secondly, Troika has beefed up the opponents even more. Gnolls and huge spiders that should not have more than 16 hit points (according to Monster Manual) often have up to 34. Other monsters have character levels. An ogre that has levels in barbarian? That's just insane! He makes two attacks a round and does huge damage. A fighter with Con 18 goes down in one round. Your only hope is to web him or Tasha's him. Also, rather stupidly IMHO, they make the stock characters too weak to finish the starting quests- you need a Wis of 16 and Cha of 16 to finish them all.

    The people at CO8 have done a magnificent job trying to fix up the game, but they can only do so much. You still have to play it over and over from save files until you learn all the minimax tricks you need to finish it. Like, all characters should have Improved Initiative. You need a character with high Survival skill. Recruit Elmo before you go after the spiders. Without him, I lost at least one character six times before I beat them.
     
  6. Al Ronnfeldt

    Al Ronnfeldt Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    But why is the party running into a Balor when they are five levels too low? TOEE makes it hard to level up to where you're supposed to be.
     
  7. Nightcanon

    Nightcanon Garrulous Halfling

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    29
    The original PnP TOEE was for AD&D 1st edition. The cRPG version uses D&D3.5 (more or less). Lots of things (including class levels for monsters, feats like cleave that mean an ogre can TPK you in a single round) are new to the game since the module was written. Then again, changes work in player favour too: crafting/ scribing scrolls, for example, and sneak attacks. Swords that always hit are much more powerful where Power Attack exists. Even with no Prestige classes in the game, multiclassing is much easier than in AD&D1 and lets you cherry-pick abilities.
     
  8. cmdw45

    cmdw45 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, he casts a DC 26-ish Fear spell. For me, his Fear and Suggestion were the hardest parts of the battle. Once I discovered that Magic Circle Against Evil does NOT function like Protection From Evil, though, I just scribed a bunch of Prot vs. Evil scrolls and cast it on all my party members before the battle, thus reducing the Balor to yet another melee mook.

    ToEE would be a lot more difficult if there were more spellcasting enemies. I understand that the NC adds some.

    -Max
     
  9. maalri

    maalri Immortal

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is a fabulous discussion on how hard parts of this game can be, especially the beginning, but I wonder if flamewolf393 is still around to profit from all this wisdom, or has he flown the coop? He has not posted since the near beginning of the thread.

    Well flame? Are you enjoying a more playable game, or have you come, tried, complained, then given up?
     
  10. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Established Member Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    377
    Likes Received:
    8
    A standard Gnoll from the 3.5 MM can have 2D8+2 hitpoints, so a maximum of 18. However not every Gnoll in the game is a standard Gnoll.

    If the Fighter goes down in 1 round perhaps he is not armoured enough? You´re not attacking an Ogre clad in light Armour, do you?
    Or a party that does other things first and gains a level before taking on an Ogre?
    If you refer to the Ogre in the Moat House - you can evade that fight by being properly dressed and talking.

    Shouldn´t someone in a party always have one of those attributes? A sorcerer certainly should start with a high charisma and a cleric with high wisdom. I rerolled my Fighter whom I plan to multiclass to Paladin 42times to get the attributes I desired.... :roll:

    I killed the two spiders at Deklo Grove without Elmo but with a party of 5 PC´s, Fruella and Furtok. Only after I have had Furtok killed on purpose did I get Elmo for the fight against the Hill Giant.
     
  11. Al Ronnfeldt

    Al Ronnfeldt Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nope. We had heavy armor and barkskin to boot. That Ogre was at least 4th level judging from the hit points; ogres have strength 18 and he was a barbarian raging, that gives him +6 to hit and +9 to damage with a two handed weapon. So he's rolling at least +10 to hit. With the best armor I could find and a good Dex, he still hits on a 9+ on d20. I'm not stupid: please don't assume that I am. I just don't want to have to write a three page post covering all the loopholes that people can poke holes through.
    I was talking about the pre-generated characters. That's what I mean by "stock" characters. None of them have any stats over 15.
    I'm not saying fights are hopeless: but they are random. Earlier in my post, I said "If the spiders win initiative and web the party..." If you win initiative and sleep the spiders first, then it's an easy fight. You can't shoot down an argument just by giving one example. However, Elmo can take out the spiders if you don't manage to sleep them. So, I suggested that you take Elmo along. The game may seem easy to you because you know all the tricks and how to minmax you characters. Back when you first played it, didn't you have to go back to saved games a lot?
     
  12. Al Ronnfeldt

    Al Ronnfeldt Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Does having a paladin in the party help? I thought that Pals gave the party bonuses vs. fear, but I don't see that affect on my party with the pal. I also thought that pals got an automatic Protection from Evil, but, again, I don't see it on the character icon.
     
  13. Al Ronnfeldt

    Al Ronnfeldt Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, I agree. Tweet and Cook made the game a lot more player freindly with 3.0 and 3.5. I especially like how they toned down poison and beefed up saving throws. But a lot of the deadliness that Gygax put in still remains. TOEE and THe Tomb of Horrors were both notorious for TPKs (Total Party Kills) with players who did not know all the tricks. Also, remember that TOEE was originally a tournament module; it was designed to weed out all but the most experienced players.
     
  14. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2003
    Messages:
    3,721
    Likes Received:
    48
    A paladin gets aura of courage at level 3.

    Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.

    This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.

    Here's a chart on Paladins that goes up to level 20. CLICK HERE
     
  15. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,104
    Likes Received:
    22
    The best defense against that ogre is to simply not be in reach of it. I'm sure there's more than one way to do that, but I stopped looking after I found one.
     
Our Host!