identify spell pointless?

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by taltamir, Mar 24, 2010.

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  1. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    the identify spell:
    1. costs 100gp to cast
    2. must be learned
    3. must be prepared
    4. can be cast on a non magical item wasting 100gp
    5. requires that you know which item is magical (usually obvious, you can also use detect magic)
    6. some magical items are automatically identified when picked up and require no casting of identify

    a store identify:
    1. you can identify as many items as you want in a row
    2. costs 100gp
    3. you cannot identify a non magic item
    4. automatically tells you which item are "not identified" (aka, magical AND require a casting of identify)...

    is there a point to the spell? doing it in the store is just vastly superior... also, how come every merchant knows how to cast identify AND is performing the service at COST AND can cast it an infinite amount of times a day AND has detect magic at will?
    for hardcore PnP reproduction it should cost more, but people will likely complain, so maybe make the spell a little better? say, 50gp or even 90gp to cast the spell instead of 100gp? its more difficult and you have to jump through some hoops (detect magic then identify), but you can save a little cash doing it that way.
     
  2. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    It's a longstanding ToEE thing. I just use the console to give my wizard a Wand of Identify and don't bother with the rest of it. It probably can"t be changed without a major .dll hack, if even then.
     
  3. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    One of those 'it is what it is' moments, to be sure. I actully use the Identify spell all the time, but I'm not the type to watch my bottom line too closely.
     
  4. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    It just seems easier and money isn't an issue. There's over a million GP in loot in the game. But it seems odd to pay 300gp to identify 3 magiclongswords to find out that one is +1 and the others +2. A druid blacksmith wouldn't know if a sword was magic or not without wizard help.
     
  5. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    A druid is a primary caster and has detect magic on his spell list and spellcraft on his skill list.
    so he is just as capable as a wizard of knowing magic swords or enchanting them...
    interestingly, using detect magic allows you to identify items for free by beating a spellcraft check of DC25+0.5*CL of the item (one try only). Potions with a flat DC25...
    A DC15+0.5*CL of item check will tell you what school the item is of (determined by the most powerful spell on the item), and the aura strength (general caster level, being with 1-5 is faint, 6-11 is moderate, 12-20 is strong, and 21+ is overpowering)...
    Detect magic CAN be made permanent actually, so any wizard with permanent detect magic and enough spellcraft ranks will auto identify items for free.

    oh, a UMD check to blindly activate a wand that succeeds by more then 5 identifies it fully as well (and activates it... don't aim at yourself :p)

    anyways, even if you are ignoring the money issue, its waaaaay too much work and effort to use the spell, you just go to the shop, click identify, and hover over items and get "already identified" / "pay 100gp to identify" on each one... can't miscast it, looting 20 magic items at once doesn't require you spending a week of resting and casting repeatedly, and you do not miss items (some items are not clear that they NEED a casting of identify; for example, the golden skull seems like a "plot item" not an item you can actually cast identify on and then USE to do stuff)
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2010
  6. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    PS...
    I know its not possible to alter the shops identify, but couldn't a casting of identify (the spell) be made a little cheaper?
     
  7. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    It could, but it's always been that way and it's RAW. I don't really see much point in changing it now.
     
  8. Necroticpus

    Necroticpus Cthulhu Ftaghn!

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    Analyze Dweomer is free as all get out. And it does all magic items in the party at each cast.
     
  9. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    very nice. can't wait to get it.
     
  10. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Sounds like a scroll of it might not be a bad thing to have as treasure, or in a shop like Mother Screng's.
     
  11. maalri

    maalri Immortal

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    Let me weigh in on this a bit, finally.

    1. It costs, yes, but Gold is really not an issue in this game, after a few levels that is. (Say after the Moathouse is completed)

    2. There's not really much to Identify BEFORE you have the extra funds to Identify it anyway- and that that there is to ID, is worth the money to do so.

    3. Yes all shops can ID and yes it wastes a spell slot to memorize it, or days in a resting area, so why learn it? I agree, let the shops do the work for the same price and save a spell slot or two- EXCEPT-

    4. If you have a Sorcerer, it is a great thing to have him/her learn, so they can cast it at the end of the day before resting anyway, AND at higher levels just HOW MANY Magic Missiles and Scorching Rays do you REALLY NEED to have memorized and on hand at a time- throw a slot or two for ID and save yourself a trip back to a shop and the annoying nagging of not knowing. (Yes I KNOW that Scorching Ray is a 2nd level spell- you CAN put 1st level spells into second level slots when memorizing...)

    And thats all I got to say on that...
     
  12. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    a sorcerer is hurt a lot more then a wizard by learning it... a wizard can change his spell loadout, rest, cast it, change it back to combat spells, and rest again immediately.
    A sorcerer gets pathetically few spells known to the point that they are pointless compared to wizards (not to mention delayed spell level progression).
    anyways, its a terrible thing for a sorcerer to learn.

    I am not complaining that it is bad that it costs money, that is understandable. i am just saying that if the shops do it so much better, the shops essentially "cheat" on identify compared to the PnP game. Which renders the true to PnP spell pointless.
    although, if you find a wand of identify its better to use it then sell it. since its less than 100gp per cast.
    Actually there is one issue, the spell says its 100gp to cast... but its only 100gp for an arcane caster... a cleric that gets it via a domain can cast it for free (that IS as intended, there are arcane material components, and then there are just material components)

    anyways, i am not complaining on the value of gold, heck i could spawn it via the console... so there is not point in saying "gold is cheap" (and btw, at early levels it isn't).

    although, there isn't really anything that can be done to fix this other than:
    1. remove the ability of shops to identify - will upset a lot of people.
    2. make the spell cheaper to cast - will make it useful, but is not true to PnP and now we went from shops are cheating to shops AND spell are cheating.

    so i don't exactly have a solution myself
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2010
  13. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    There was a Mass Identify variation posted on Co8 several years ago, it does everything on the person who gets it (or the whole party, I forget which). Its totally a power-hack so it will never appear in an official Co8 mod, but its here to download somewhere if you want to use it. Just do a search for Mass Identify.
     
  14. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    ^ The aforementioned Analyze Dweomer is just that.

    The reason to have a wand of Identify, or to learn the spell is to be able to identify items without returning to a town. While the way it is in TOEE now, it's not a valid payoff, but technically the party could run into difficulties on the way back to town, while knowing the properties of an unknown item could help out a lot.
     
  15. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    when i think of it, this is very true for a game played by a novice to CharOp who doesn't realize XP is a river and how utterly devastatingly powerful item crafting is (especially when you can get near market price on crafted items). most items you find in the field are typically only useful for selling for gold to craft more stuff with (without wasting precious XP by crafting items solely for sale)... at the point you find items that are really awesome you are too powerful to care about random encounters and too rich to care about the cost of casting the spell... so it can be useful as a time saving feature (woot, fragarach... lemme cast identify because i don't want to waste 5 minutes hiking back to town and i have got GP coming out the wazoo)

    I recall during vanilla that i used the spell to do field identifies... or wait, maybe that had more to do with the lack of the magic chest which made lugging items a total PITA? i forgot...

    anyways, random encounters are just distractions in the form of delicious little XP packets... and traveling to town for identifies is really simple and easy. but some people prefer the option of doing it in the field and more power to them... I might as well start ragging on magic missile and the like... that way lies madness. Let people use the spell for field identifies if that is how they like playing.
     
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