Gameplayhelp/hints/discussions

I've done point-buy multiclasing, but I agree that good rolls (or a stat cheat) are the best choice. The Ranger-Rogue and Fighter-Barbarian are good choices mainly beause you don't have to spread your stats so thin.

 

Advice for Magic Users (Note: This is ToEE only; ToEE is not pen and paper D&D, and some things are different. I like the compromises on Scroll Scribing and Item Crafting that the designers made; if you don’t, you don’t have to craft items):

1) Scribe Scrolls. When you level up, sell them off and scribe a new batch. It’s cheap in terms of XP (cheaper than any other form of item crafting for most scrolls), and it’s a good source of early cash if you have someone with a high appraise skill in the party. The scrolls are cast at the level of whoever scribed them, so your Level 7 Wizard will be scribing scrolls of Fireball that do 7d6 damage. Scrolls of Magic Missile are dirt cheap and make any other ranged weapon a waste of time for mid-level Wizards.

2) For Wizards and Sorcerers, Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration are very good feats. You won’t get much out of them at Level One, but when you walk into the Temple you’ll find it much easier to deal with spell resistant foes if you choose these feats. A good power path for a Human Wizard might be Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus at level one, Spell Penetration at 3, Greater Spell Penetration at 6, and Empower Spell at 9. Use the bonus feats at 5 and 10 for Craft Item and Craft Weapons and Armor. This wizard will have much better luck overcoming foes with good saves at low levels, and getting some effect in on foes with Spell Resistance at just about the time he starts to meet them.

3) What schools to pick? Enchantment rules at lower levels, with Sleep able to wipe out many foes at once in the Moathouse. Charm Person can get you some free cannon fodder, and Charm Animal is a fantastic spell if you have a Druid along. Later, Evocation and Conjuration start to take center stage. At levels 3 and 4, a Web followed by Burning Hands can cause serious damage to a room full of foes (best to use two Wizards to pull off this effect fast), while at level 5 Fireball and Stinking Cloud become available, allowing you to make a room full of targets helpless while you burn them.

4) Don’t forget to Craft Items. For Wizards, a Headband of Intellect +6 will boost the DC of every single spell, making it that much harder for foes to save. For Sorcerers and Bards, use a Cloak of Charisma. For Druids, an Amulet of Wisdom. I rarely use direct attack spells with Clerics (monster summoning, Spiritual Weapons, and buffs are my preference), but an Amulet of Wisdom works for them as well.

5) Spell Focus: Conjuration followed by Augment Summons is a great choice for 1st level Human Druids. Summoned Animals become seriously effective with those boosts. Natural Spell only really starts to pay for itself after your Druid hits 6th level, or 9th level for druids with good equipment and high physical stats. I usually skip it. Some folks dislike using summoned animals, which is fine; it is true that there are faster ways to do a lot of damage. However, the summoned animal is both offensive and defensive; positioned correctly, he can give your fighters an attack bonus (through flanking), block doorways to trap foes inside, a room, draw attacks, block the path to weaker party members, and reliably inflict damage, all without risking injury to your fighters. I’ve gotten very good results from them. Remember that you can only have up to 5 Summons at any one time, including Animal Companions. I think this also includes charmed animals, but have not checked.

6) When to craft: Personally, I like to go on a crafting spree at level 3 with Clerics and Druids, and at Level 5 with Wizards. Doing much item crafting before 5 with your Wizard delays your access to Fireball, which I try to avoid. I don’t like to craft with Bards or Sorcerers (aside from scribing scrolls); their options are too limited, and they gain new spell levels more slowly than other casters. In an all Bard or Sorc party, you don’t have much choice. It’s often a mistake to craft weaker items; Gloves of Dexterity +2 are cool, but you’ll just end up selling them later. Better to wait until you have the saved cash and XP for Gloves of Dexterity +6. For building cash, I prefer using a high appraise skill and selling off 0 level scrolls early in the game, and selling off captured items later in the game, but using crafting as a cash pump does work; you just need to keep fighting through a lot of random encounters.

 

I power play in video RPGs because it is largely expected. When I read the manual and learned that Perform was only for bardic music, I was disappointed, but realized that was how it was. Let us not turn this thread into a mechanics or rollplaying versus roleplaying argument, but tell what we have found effective in gamely terms.

-EE

 

:imwithstu
but not just for the power gamer, altho this thread is abit about getting the most bang for your buck, its also about making wise choices in creating characters and a party, even if you love halfling paladins and half-orc sorcerers.
Its about getting the most bang for your buck with how you choose to play the game, there's no point in playing a game that you find frustrating or boring, you shouldn't have to sacrifice the races or classes that you enjoy even if they aren't the strongest choice they can still be made strong.

 

I think both Halfling Paladins and Half-Orc Sorcerers could do fine in ToEE.

Halfling Paladins could make excellent archers, and have a very good AC when using the elvish chain mail (Size Bonus and Dex Bonus help both archery and AC). Start them as Rogues an you have one of the strangest combos in the game, the Rogue Paladin; that first sneak attack arrow could be very nasty. They'd be outclassed by Halfling Rogue-Rangers or Rogue-Fighters in combat terms, but they'd have crazy good saving throws (Paladin bonus plus Halfling bonus). You'd need great stat rolls.

Half-Orc Sorcerers could be armed with long-spears, and could devote half of their early spell slots to personal protection and buffing spells. Str 20 + Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Shield, Blur, Mirror Image, maybe a feat in Martial Weapon: Great Sword ... you'd need insanely good stat rolls (four 16s, or even better a couple of 18s and a couple of 16s) but the resulting monster would be great in HtH combat at low levels, and not a bad fireball thrower at high levels (Cloak of Charisma +6 would help). Not as powerful as almost any other kind of sorcerer once you pass level 4 or so, but still a tough customer.

 

Yeah thats what I mean, just cos somthing sounds silly doesn't mean it can't be done, or wont be effective, you just have to know how to get it to work for you.

 

By the way

Classes that make a good (or just above average) party leader and why.

 

Re: By the way

1) Rogue. Absolutely the best party leader. Has every talking skill as a class skill. Rogue-Ranger is also in this position, but his more traditional Rogue skills will suffer if you keep his talking skills maxed out. Both Rogues and Rogue-Rangers can be very powerful in combat as well.

2) Bard. Has every talking skill except Intimidate as a class skill; even that's not so bad, as Bluff 5+ adds +2 to Intimidate, and the Bard can self-buff his Charisma. The Bard is also a good healer and a great party buffer, which makes him a very good leader from a role-playing perspective. Like a good coach, even if he can't o the job himself, he can help every member of his team do the job better.

3) Cleric of Boccob, or multi-classed Rogues or Bards other than Rogue-Ranger. These are lumped together because they'll either be taking some talking skills cross-class, or because they won't be able to max-out every skill at every level. Not as good a face man as a Rogue, Rogue Ranger or Bard, but usually able to shore up some other weak area in the party.

4) Paladin, Sorcerer. Use Persuasive and Negotiator feats at first level, a Snake familliar for the Sorcerer, a Circlet of Persuasion, and a Cloak of Charisma. At first these guys may start out with higher talking skills than the pure talkers, mostly because the skill boosting feats that these characters must take to compete are wasted on a Rogue or Bard. However, they can do a fine job at least as far as level 5 or so, and once you get into the temple you may decide that you're done talking anyway. As a bonus, like the Bard, their combat power is also boosted by a high Charisma.

5) Anyone with Persuasive, Negotiator, a high Charisma, and the right items. You don't really need fantastic talking skills in ToEE; as long as you can get your Diplomacy and Sense Motive up to around 10, you'll be able to get most quests. Note that Liv's mod has some quests requiring higher skills, and that even in the standard game you'll want to get up to 15+ in order to see absolutely everything.

 

Most multiclassing should be avoided in TOEE because you have a five character party and a 10th level cap. If you want power, you should typically go with pure classes. But here are some guidelines anyway.

Barbarian: If your Barbarian seems to be easily surviving fights then cut off at 8th level and take a few levels in Fighter or Rogue. If you also find yourself only occasionally using Rage, consider cutting off at 6th level instead.

Bard: Any multiclassing will cost you 4th level spells and cut into the power of your bardic music. I wouldn't recommend it. Although, if you are using a bard, you probably aren't power playing anyway and know what you're doing.

Cleric: Like all spellcasters, multiclassing cuts into your spells and should usually be avoided. In a party that needs more melee muscle, however, Clerics may consider taking one level of Fighter for an additional feat and Martial Weapon Proficiency.

Druid: Same as the Cleric.

Fighter: If you are absolutely sure that you won't get much use out of another feat or two then take some levels in Barbarian or Rogue for their class abilities -- primarily Rage or Sneak Attack.

Monk: It really doesn't make much sense. Monks get valuable bonuses all the way to 10th level.

Paladin: Multiclassing will cut into a Paladin's spellcasting, turning , smite evil, and lay-on hands abilities. It should probably be avoided. There might be a circumstance were a critical feat is needed and you take one level of Fighter to get it, but you typically want your Paladins pure.

Ranger: It was long discussed in another thread -- and I'm not very found of this class. If I was going to play with one, I'd make it pure. The Ranger is a specific mix of abilities so I'd want to max out the spells, animal companion, and favored enemy. I suppose there are a few interesting multiclasses you could pull off with a mix of Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian levels... but I still say the best Ranger is the Rogue/Fighter.

Rogue: While a pure Rogue is great, this is a class that I usually multiclass with Fighter for the extra feats and BAB so that I can get more use out of him in combat. With an 18 INT you can get most of the Rogue skills to adequate levels by 6th level. Then you switch over to Fighter and only raise the 4-5 most essential skills. I use the extra feats to become a two weapon fighter or archer. Barbarian levels might also work, but I strongly prefer the Fighter's feats.

Sorcerer/Wizard: These classes are about their spells, and unless you are trying out something for fun, should stay pure. Nothing is really worth cutting into their spellcasting development.

In summary, most spellcasting classes (and the Monk) should remain pure and the Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue are all good classes to mix with each other. There are lots of other fun options, but you're probably weakening your character if you move beyond those guidelines.

 

Multiclassing works well if you look at it in terms of the skills you need for the party as a whole, and in terms of what you gain vs what you lose.

Rogues multiclass well with almost anything. Yes, a Rogue 1/Wizard 9 is not as good a Wizard as a pure Wizard 10. Hovever, he can still cast level 5 spells and craft items, and he can also Open Locks, Search, and Disable Devices almost as well as a pure Rogue. Use a Halfling with a cat familliar and he'll even be able to Hide and Move Silently (or just cast invisibility). You lose a very small amount of crafting power near the end of the game, high damage sneak attacks, and some secondary Rogue skills in exchange for gaining a full Wizard. He makes a great party member.

Rogue 1/Ranger 9 is even better. Rangers get 6+INT Modifier in skill points per level, and share some skills in common with Rogues. You gain the full power of a Ranger and all of the key Rogue skills, in exchange for reduced Sneak Attack damage and the loss of one BAB and one racial enemy. It's a good trade.

Sorcerers don't generally multiclass well. Just one level of something else loses them all level five spells, and their access to higher level spells is already slow compared to most classes.

Barb 4/Fighter 6 or Fighter 4/Barb 6 are such good deals I'm surprised that you don't see them used more.

 

Feats and Feat Development Paths:

What are some good feat development paths for each of the following:

Half-Orc Cleric of Kord, starts with Martial Weapon:Greatsword, intended to be a HtH fighter. Three feats remaining (3, 6, 9).

Elvish Rogue, intended to be the party spokesman, designed as an archer. All four feats available (1, 3, 6, 9).

Human Druid, all-around spell caster and utility character. All five feats available (1, 1, 3, 6, 9).

 

I think multiclasses like this are more useful if you have a limited number of party members and you need some characters to perform multiple roles. But if you are using at least five (or even four) characters, it makes less sense. You have plenty of space to make a full Wizard and a full Rogue.

But back to your original point, a 3/7 or 5/5 Rogue/Wizard are interesting builds as well.

Like I said... my advice is to avoid the Ranger class altogether. Nine levels of Ranger is better than ten levels, but zero levels is best of all.

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and then either Weapon Focus (Longbow) or Manyshot, depending on your play style.

But really, that's not going to be a very effective build because the feats come too slowly. He'll have a chance of getting a good Sneak Attack hit at the beginning of combat, but then he'll become relatively useless. You'll be too often inaccurate until you get Precise Shot at 3rd level, and you really won't take off until 6th level when you get Rapid Shot. And you won't be able to get many of the other helpful archer feats. You'd be better off making a TWF dagger Rogue.

For archers, I'd strongly recommend starting with a Human Fighter. With the three 1st level feats you can cover the essentials (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot) and become an immediate contributor. Then you can start covering the other good archer feats (Weapon Focus: longbow, Weapon Specialization: longbow, and Improved Critical: longbow). After you have the basics covered you might consider multiclassing to Rogue for the Sneak Attack and other abilities and maybe pick up Improved Initiative... but staying as a Fighter is okay also.

More archer tips: Get a Strength score of 16 and pick up a +3 composite longbow as soon as possible. This will help increase your damage output. Later on, be sure to get Greater Bracers of Archery and add some sort of damage bonus to your longbow. Gloves of Dexterity will help as well.

 

It's all in play style, gain and loss. From my point of view, by 10th level the Wizard/Rogue contributes much more to the party than a pure rogue. He can craft items (boosting the power of every party member if you want to take the time to do it), fireball rooms full of foes for 9d6 a pop (spell penetration and greater spell penetration gets damaging spells past many magic resistant foes, and there's always switching to summons or bows for those absolutely immune to magic), buff himself and the party, etc. He can pick every lock, find and disarm every trap, and sneak just as well as any Rogue with one second level spell. Thanks to scroll scribing, he has unlimited spells per day. By dropping that pure Rogue, you've made room in the party for a character that makes a more direct contribution to combat or the entire party, anything from another Wizard to a Barbarian. All you lose is sneak attack damage, a more than fair trade.

This is not to say that you can't have fun with a "pure" rogue; no one is better as the party's face man. You just don't need one, even from a raw power point of view.

Play style again. A Rogue/Ranger 9 loses that great sneak attack in exchange for contributing more than a pure Rogue in each and every round of combat, while doing the Rogue's job just as well as the Rogue would have and freeing up space for a heavy hitter. He's not as tough as a fighter, but he's not replacing the fighter; he's replacing the Rogue.

A comparison to a Fighter/Rogue is more telling, but our Rogue Ranger still gets useful bonus feats up to level 6, and a few fairly good spells. The Fighter/Rogue has an edge as a fighter if he goes for 9/1 or 8/2(for Evasion), but the 9/1 Ranger/Rogue is more flexible (if you're looking for flexible).

All good advice, depending on why you want the Elven Rogue in the first place. I agree that the slower feat progression is a problem for non-human Archers. Probably, if you do want a non-Human Rogue Archer and don't need the skill points to let the Rogue act as the party's face, you'd be best off with a Fighter/Rogue.

 

A 9/1 Wizard/Rogue is basically a Wizard with some Rogue skills. Or rather, a Wizard that gives up a cut of his most powerful spells for some Rogue skills.

You might believe that a Wizard contributes much more to the party than a Rogue... but then you are just expressing favorite archetypes and not really comparing builds.

A 9/1 Wizard/Rogue does not really replace a Rogue. You can get some of your favorite skills, but it doesn't replace the wide range of skills a Rogue can offer. Nor does it come close to substituting the melee role that a Rogue plays. Low BAB, low HP, low Sneak Attack, low Tumble, no Evasion or Uncanny Dodge, and low Reflex saves.

A 9/1 Wizard/Rogue is really saying, "I'm going to play without a Rogue and have my Wizard do a half-assed job to get me by the essentials." And this is fine, particularly if you are limited to 2 or 3 characters. But with five character spots available there's no compelling reason to skip on one of the archetypes.

Hmmm... I suspect you've never used a Rogue properly. With multiple attacks, a good Tumble skill, and Sneak Attack a Rogue drops enemies as well as anyone in the party -- and much better than some.

Again you demonstrate that you likely don't know how to use a Rogue properly. Rogues contribute more every round in combat because of their Sneak Attack. Rogues are a "heavy hitter" because of Sneak Attack. In contrast, the Ranger is a Dexterity-based warrior that gets married to either TWF or achery. Either way you are dealing with low damage build.

(And nor does the Ranger/Rogue perform the Rogue's job "just as well". See my comments on the Wizard/Rogue above.)

Interesting line of reasoning... You praise the Ranger over the Fighter because the Ranger gets "useful bonus feats"? The Fighter gets all the bonus feats the Ranger will every get by 2nd level. If you are searching for an advantage the Ranger has over the Fighter, you will not find it here.