Gameplayhelp/hints/discussions

Party of 5
1. Belgham 'Soulstealer'
Barb 1/Fig 1/ Rog x Neutral Good Human (CG is buggy with weapon)
Dual wield Scather & Fragarach
Strength priority, high dex
Power attack/Cleave/exotic weapon proficiency bastard/ 2-weapon fighting & improve 2wf/improve initiative/combat expertise/improve crit bastard sword
2. Maerek Belgorn
Barb 1/Fig 1/Cleric of Kord 1 (Luck & Str)/Rog x NG Human
Dual wield 2 uber enchanted rapier
Dex priority, high strength
Why cleric of Kord? Luck will give you reroll on miss and miss crit hit. This will be very good with the keen rapier.
Power attack/Cleave/2wf&I2wf/Improve initiative/weapon focus axe/improve critical rapier/weapon finese

3. Lord Grump Argath
Cleric x Dwarf (Lawful & good domain)
Why lawful & good? FOr the holy and axiomatic crafting A&A of course.
Strenght priority, high wis, high dex
Wield Glaive, role as healer, 2nd line fighter and tripper.
Power attack/cleave/great cleave/craft A&A/improve turning/improve initiative/combat reflex/forge ring (ring of protection +3!!)
4. Lady El'heira Moonglow
Fig1/Druid x Elf
Longspear
Craft wondrous item (amulet of natural armor +3, main reason for the druid being in the party), SF conjuration, augmented summoning, natural spell, improve ini, maximise spell, heightened spell
6. Maiden Calandra A'Kyla
Wiz x Elf
Weapon composite long bow
craft ma&a, craft wondrous item, craft staff & wand(maybe something good will come from this but you can choose precise shot and rapid shot), sf & gsf evocation, maximise spell, quicken spell, heightened spell.
Nickname Inferno, a heightened, maximise fireball will really really BURN!@

All characters except wizard use padded armor and bracers of protection +5, buckler for max ac, hence the need for improve initiative. All with ac before spell 35+.
This party took on and beat St Cuthbert at level 12.

 

One thing about this game is the selections and options. Spells, feats, magic items, etc. I printed the mes desciption file, it's 39 pages long. Potions, scrolls, weapons, armour, you name it. I took a party of 4 and beat Hedrack, with help from St. Cuthbert of course. They held off Iuz long enough and then it was all over. Fair and square, no console cheats or nothing.
I'd like too see new people and returnees read this this thread and see all the good info that's in here. Just to see the many different ways you can build a strong workable party. It's kind of frustrating to get well up into the game and find out your party can't do the things it needs to do. This is a problem for less experienced players that starts at creation. I know this well from my own experience. Play and learn.

 

Speaking of spell selection, those of you that love and trust magic, pros and cons of the differnt spell schools and the spells within them.

 

I read a long time ago that the magic system for D&D came from Vances Dying Earth book. The game was going to be a combination of swordplay and spellcasting. At least that's the concept as I understand it. A friend of mine wouldn't play anything but a dwarf fighter and his goal in life was to kill a hill giant with his magical throwing hammer. He didn't like or trust wizards either. when we played the pnp module he played Elmo also. Long time players develope their own habits, playing style, favorites, dislikes, etc. That's cool. There's enough flexibility and selections built into the game so people aren't "locked-in" and can only do certain things. Just look at this thread. So much different stuff and ideas. One of the main reasons I like this game is there is so much variety, and with Livonya there is more on the way. Just have fun and enjoy yourself.

 

Oh my...... I'm quite shocked. I red just now the several posts added here and I see only one thing: power playing.
I expected to see strategies and interesting multiclass characters, instead I see only one thing: POWER PLAYING. IMHO, of course. Some choiches, like to have a rogue with 1 wizard level just for the familiar, are completely out of my playing style and certainly they do not follow any real background. I think that D&D is a ROLE playing game because you have to follow the PC role. Making a barbarian/rogue (an heavy and big guy that yells while in rage that immediately becomes silent when it is time to sneak.. bah) or a paladin/sorcerer (ah! you evil creature! Take this finger of death! Slay living! Flesh to Stone! Bwhahahaa! oh..... and to you, my friend, lay on hands... ) is completely out of any role and I wouldn't enjoy it. If you like playing in this way, enjoy the game and don't listen that old bear that is me, but I prefer the following approach.

here is my races description:
- Humans: the extra feat and skill points will help the player to highly customize every PC. They are for sure the 2nd best choiche for every class and often just the first one. Sometimes, it is great to have 1 extra feat or more skill points but sometimes you may prefer some speciality bonus that will make human a the choiche for quantity instead than quality.
- Dwarves: great fighters. They may be good rangers (exalt their natural bonuses against some particular races) and decent clerics and rogues too if the player don't mind too much about turning undead or diplomatic abilities. Dwarves have the right allignment to be paladins too, but the -2 penality to CHAR is heavy. It is not a bad idea to exalt their natural bonus to appraisal.
- Elves: they are just great for everything but front-line men. Great thieves, archers, wizards, rogues, sorcerers, rangers and even fighters if you plan to use their +2 bonus to DEX to build up the requirement for extra attacks with the secondary weapon. Competence in all bows, sword and rapier may give almost the same benefits of 1 fighter level, in some situations.
- Half-Elves: great diplomats. This means, bards, rogues and paladins. Their natural talent in diplomacy exalts those classes skills giving them a great superior quality attribute, but other races will do better other professions (read classes) than them, so they are almost useless except than for role-playing purposes.
- Half-Orcs. They are made for fighting and nothing else. Of course, the +2 to STR exalts the efficiency of every class that fights with 1 2-handed weapon and they may be decent clerics, druids, monks, rangers and good fighters, even if many of those classes are too far away from their allignment.
- Halfling. They are crappy and I hate them, but still they make decent thieves, ranged-fighters with slings (+1 to hit for small size and +1 for sling) and spellcasters. The only real problem is that, they will never have enough STR to choose of not using wepon finesse, but in this way they will only use 1d4 damage weapons, that's crappy and they have a reduced movement and transport capacity, that makes them slower and often boring for dungeon crawling.
- gnomes. They suffer the same halfling problem with size, but the +2 con makes them better spellcasters (concentration checks, HPs). They may be good rangers too, if they choose as favored enemies the ones against wich they already have bonuses and because they may use the gnome hoocked hammer to fight with 2 weapons (if you use my protos.tab ^_^ )

 

This is instead my class description and possible ways to mix & level up them.
Classes: (first the first 4 main mighty classes from D&D ^_^ )
- Fighter: it is a great class alone or a boost for every other class that wants to join the firt line. A fighter may specialize with 1 2-handed weapon (power attakc & greater cleave), with ranged weapon (wirlwind attack and combar reflexes), 2-weapons fighting with 2 light weapons or 1 double weapon so that both will gains benefits of Weapon Specialization & co, with bows or with 1 melee weapon and shield. Alternatively, another class may want to take 1, 2 or 4 fighter levels in order to get 2 extra feats or weapon specialization. I prefer fighters to barbarian because they have better armors, they may resist more against many opponents at the same time and, having more feats, they are more funny to use. More, weapon specialization and greater weapon focus will never make him exausted and will last forever, not like barbarian rage that has both good and bad sides. May level up to level 20.
- Rogue: the fac-totum. A rogue may be oriented toward fighting in many ways, alone or mixing it with fighters or ranger levels. Or be the perfect dungeon crawler that goes disarming traps and opening doors. Or a great diplomat, but in this case he will be WORST than a bard (see below).
A rogue has the dexterity to fight well with 2 light weapons, with rapier and buckler, bow or spiked chain. But each choiche has his good and bad sides. The -2 penality of fighting with 2 weapons is heavy because rogues don't have the same fighter base attack bonus, but wil drastically increase the damage dealth with sneak attacks when flanking an opponent. Spiked chain instead may be devasting with combat reflexes, combat mastery and improved trip. 2, 3 o r 4 rogue levels may be appreciated from many classes because of 2 sneak attacks, evasion and uncanny dodge, not to talk about some ability scores like thumble, use magic items, sneak and hide. May level up to level 13.
- Wizard: the best spellcaster for a tactical approach to game. Great as item-forger, for skills and quantity of spells written in the spellbook, he may level up alone, start with a bunch of rogue and/or fighter level for increased melee performance or mixed with a fighter choosing spells like armor, shield, enlarge person, speed or greater invisibility that will make him a deadly, silent, assassin. He may specialize into a magic school, with 1 extra spell slot per level (great thing). Some players like very much a rogue 4/ wizard X PC. May level up to level 20, as long as he has spells to learn.
- Cleric: the perfect healer and undead-destroyer (or controller). Many domains make the cleric the most customizable healer and he has more spells per day than druid. Every domain is good, but the one connected to allignments are good only for weapon crafting, otherwise almost useless. Choosing "evil" is useless as well, while an evil cleric may choose Law as domain, since almost all enemies are chaotic-evil and lawful weapons will be effective. Sometimes I like to give my cleric 3 Paladin levels, for increased saving throws and smithe evil ability. May level up to level 20.

(now the new ones)
- Barbarian: probably it is the warrior that deals more damage and the strongest one into a 1vs1 fight. I don't like it too much, but using power attack and cleave with a 2-handed weapon is just a great deal. Alternatively, somebody may want to play a barbarian with a double weapon (or 2 weapon fighting) or a ranged weapon like glavie, but it is not so effective. Many classes may benefits from 1, 2 or 3 barbarian levels. 1 for b.rage (and weapons & armors proficiency for not-warrior classes), 2 for uncanny dodge and fast movement or 3 for +1 to will and reflexes saving throws if the PC really has low scores. Since barbarian is one that lives in the wilderness, he may dualclass with a ranger accordingly to a role. If I want to give to a druid some weapon proficiency, I may think about 1 or 2 barbarian levels or 1 or 2 ranger levels (that will stack for the animal companion level). May level up to level 20, but will gain no benefits after level 10.
- Bard: he is a great 5th man. Nice spells, may heal himslef and others, bardic music is always useful and is the best diplomat ever. This mainly because they have Charisma as their main attribute, while Rogues must point on INT and DEX at first. A bard may work as a diplomat or choose some very nice spells like Cat's grace, distortion and mirror image to increase their defensive and offensive (if using weapon finesse) abilities in battle. Even if bards may use shields, they may risk to fail spells if wearing them, but rarely they have the strenght to avoid weapon finesse and to weild a 2-handed weapon, so using a spiked chain (but out of role) or wighting with 2 weapons is not a bad choice (even if the -2 penality to hit is heavy), but those choices will take away all available feats. Bards may be decent archers too and gnome bards with a very low strenght may want to use light crossbows with quick reload feat to be effective by far distance. May level up aproximatively to level 15-16, but then he eventually reach a point when he can't choose any more spells and will be unable to complete the level up screen.
- Druid: a very powerful character. 1d8 HD, strong offensive and defensive spells (flame strike, barkskin, greater magic fang, cure wounds spells) makes him a deal. he may even turn himslef into an animal if he lacks the strength and constitution to fight with a scimitar or a lance. Whatever the choiche is, as Old Book told, agument summoning is a must-take feat. Animal companions are a great thing too, but there is something really weird about how they get benefits accordingly with the Druid level. So at the end the best choiche ever is the polar bear and, sadly, this is one of the many reasons for wich it is difficult to make a druid really different from another one. So, tried once, it is boring to keep another one in the party. May level up to level 20.
- Monk: another great 5th man. He is a solitary one, since he can't really help the party except but beating opponents, but he is a versatile character that may heal himself, turn arrows against opponents, has the best saving throws ever, spell resistance, several bonuses and 2 extra attacks per round. There are 2 main ways to build up a monk: to take weapon finesse if he has a great dexterity and then to point everything on unharmed strike damage (this allows to use the stunning fist attack) or to use a quarestaff if the monk has a great strenght and if you don't want to bring a Druid with you only to craft the Amulet of Mighty Fists. The quarestaff has the advantage that the monk holds it as a 2-handed weapon and he will deal 1.5 times the STR bonus, but it really needs a very good STR score to cover the advantages of having punches and kicks dealing 1d12 damages. Using a staff will prevent a monk from using the stunning fist ability but are cheaper and more easy to find than Amulet of Mighty Fist, may be enchanted by every spellcaster and so deal elemental damage (like 1d6 flamming & stuff). or a monk that takes 1 wizard (or sorcerer) level to get the benefits of magic armor and magic shield, but I don't like having a -1 to hit and 1d4 instead of 1d8 HP for such minor bonuses, especially when I have another spellcaster helping the monk. May level up to level 20.
- Paladin: they fight well, they are powerful and with interesting abilities and they are immune to fear. Those are all important bonuses but their presence is more a matter of tastes. If you like them, well. Otherwise they may be replaced by every other warrior. Sadly, they miss the presence of their special mount, that I would glady see replaced by a celestial wardog or whatever that may work as the druid's animal companion. There are no special feats that I may remember and that may be a must for a paladin, just try to follow their God's allignment at the best (for example, use Moradin's favourited weapon if you are a dwarven paladin, not the usual longsword). May level up to level 20.
- Ranger: great 2nd 1st-line warrior and/or 5th man. Rangers are not as effective as the other warriors, but they may be customized in several different ways: wepon focus and improvements on 2 light weapons of the same kind, 1 normal and 1 light weapons and only generical feats, 1 double weapon if STR is high enough, archery, different favored enemies, spells and skill points. Don't point too much trust on ranger as healer because he gets those spells too late and may be useful only to stabilize allies but not to heal them during a fight. May level up aproximatively to level 12, but then he eventually reaches a point when he can't choose any more flavored enemies and will be unable to complete the level up screen.
Sorcerer: the best spellcaster for killing monsters. It is not as versatile as wizard and probably a bit more borning, but when he starts to cast maximized and empowered fireballs one after the other, or other devasting area-effect spells, enemies will have very few chances to win. He offers a completely different approach to the game than a wizard, but is nor better or worst. Must-take feats are maximized spells and empowered spells. May level up aproximatively to level 13, but then he eventually reach a point when he can't choose any more spells and will be unable to complete the level up screen.

 

Get invisible, sneak in the wizards room, loot both chests, get Orb and haul butt. The knock spell is a good thing. Get invisible, sneak into watertemple priests room, loot chest and haul butt. Big bucks and not a blow was made. Invisibility is a good thing. But, I'll be back with my friends with the big swords and turn your juggernaut into a pile of junk, spell resistance and all. There is a time and a NEED for sword power and a time for spell power. A good balance party should be able to meet any need that comes up. A random encounter with 4 trolls or 3 owlbears for example. Fireball is hard to set up without friendly fire, and a melee sword fight is really tough. Now what? You've got 200-300HP worth of monster around you and you have a problem. I'd like to know a good strategy for these. They usually kill my half-elf AC13 wizard right away. Pure luck if she gets away and does magicmissile. Developing strategy comes with playing experience and long time players could share theirs here if they wish.
Multiclassing is an expeirence thing also and it works great if you know how to set it up and use it. Some old hands could comment on that also. I use Wonnilon and he's a good rogue and fighter. Heavy armour and power attack. Good open lock skills,etc. Let's hear from some multiclass specialist.

 

Conan was a Barbarian/Rogue. He was one of the greatest characters in Fantasy, from books to movies to RPGs. Your opinion that playing that type of character is "completely out of any role" would not be shared by tens of millions of fans of the character.

 

Elric of Stormbringer fame in Moorcocks books was basically a fighter/wizard. His spells were pretty limited but they saved his butt. I would think a half-elf fighter/wizard would be interesting. Fireball and fight too. I think I'll research that idea.

 

I image Conan the barbarian like something different, more a barbarian and a generical adventurer. I never followed those comics too much, even if he is very famous, but still I can't image him like a D&D typical rogue. Still, every combination is possibile and it is "right" if you may image a special back-ground for it. But still, I can't and I will never use it.

One more thing, I forgot to say that bards may replace rogues for dungeon crawling purposes if you take the Skill Focus feat for lock picking. Searching and disarmig traps are almost useless, since he can't detect them in any way if they are magic (like almost all traps), but still he may use the open/close spell on chests, after unlocking them, so that the spell/trap will fizzle

 

Finishing the game with an all-multiclass party is easy enough, though most multiclasses are eclipsed by single class characters in ToEE. Still, you can do some nice things.

Rogue 1 / Ranger X. The Ranger’s high number of skill points lets you max out most key rogue skills; this character can serve as your speaker (with INT, CHA and WIS 14+) or as your lock-picker, scout and trap finder (INT and DEX 14+) just as well as a rogue, all while having a BAB only one point behind a pure fighter. Add to this an animal companion (more attacks, flanking, another body for enemies to target), two weapon fighting or archery, racial enemies, and a few nice spells. If you can manage an INT 18, he can be your Lord of All Skills with the right feat choices, at the cost of losing some combat power. Overall one of the best multiclass options.

Barbarian 6/Fighter 4. Works just as well the other way around. Enough feats to max out skill with one weapon and perform a special maneuver (Whirlwind attack is worth going for), great raw power and speed. Half-Orc is a good choice for this combo, though you’ll need an initial roll of 15 in INT (Half-Orc then applies a -2) if you want Combat Expertise and the feats that follow it. Probably the strongest multiclass in the game, losing very little in the way of special abilities late in the game in exchange for a serious power boost early on, when you need it.

Rogue 1/Wizard X. Not that fond of this one, but it does work. Requires an initial INT and DEX of 18. Take a Halfling with Nimble Fingers and make sure that she starts off with cross-class skills in Concentration and Spellcraft at level one, max out Spellcraft and Concentration and Level 2 (her first Wizard level), and then keep Concentration maxed while adding to two each of Open Locks, Disable Device, and Search at each level. Her Hide and Move Silently will already start high as a Halfling, and a Cloak of Elven Kind plus a Cat familiar will get them high enough to finish the game (or you can just cast Invisibility), and she’ll Search, Open Locks, and Find Traps almost as well as a pure Rogue, while casting spells almost as well as a pure Wizard. Add to that a really good AC with just Mage Armor and Shield, even better with Items. A very useful character, but requires lots of micro-management.

Barbarian 1/Druid X or Cleric of Kord X. Not my favorite characters (I prefer pure classes with the Martial Weapon feat for this role), these are still very strong combos. The Half-Orc Barbarian Druid (for RPG purposes, think Shaman) is fast, can hit very hard and harder when raging, and has a great range of weapons to choose from. He’s also almost as good as a pure Druid at spell-casting, and the Animal Companion is helpful. The Barbarian Cleric of Kord (Strength and Luck domains) can briefly achieve the highest STR in the game for a single blow, has that same excellent range of weapon choices, and has a great range of buffs. On the other hand, he is not going to do that well at turning Undead.

Rogue/Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian – I don’t like this one, but he does have his good points. Start with Rogue 1, then Ranger 2, Barbarian 1 or 2, Fighter 2, then back to Rogue and go around again. All key Rogue skills stay close to maxed, he’s fast, can fight with two weapons, can rage, and has extra feats. The deadly special forces type. The Ranger Rogue is probably better for this role, but this type of Multi is very flexible.

Bard 6/Fighter 4 or Bard 4/Ranger 6. I’m neutral on these, but they do make for very good archers and party spokesmen, and have more direct offensive punch than a pure Bard. Great talking skills, good ranged combat, good all-party buffs, OK magic. Add a not-very-tough animal companion for the Ranger combo. You can’t do much better for a party spokesman, but there are more powerful characters to fill that roll.

 

Druids are really better for that role in ToEE; they can cast in limited armor, have good evocation and area control spells, and have an OK range of weapons. The old-school Fighter-Wizard is still possible in ToEE (Barbarian 1/Wizard 9 or Fighter 2/Wizard 8 are OK, an Elvish Wizard with fighter type feats is not bad) but is weaker than he used to be.

 

The original Conan novels by Robert E. Howard are worth reading, as are the novels by Philip Jose Farmer. I never read the comics.

There's no reason to use a class or combo you don't like, but D&D Fantasy is kind of an entry level hodgepodge when looked at as part of fantasy literature. There aren't that many combinations that haven't been tried, and some (like Cleric-Wizard or Druid-Bard) are much more common in fantasy and mythology than they are in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms.

Besides, what we like is not always what works best in the game.

 

For sure, it is just a matter of role and interpretation.

 

One of the problems with muticlassing is you need real good ablitity scores in several areas to cover everything. If you roll up real good #'s you're good to go. I think I will experiment with this and see how it works out.
Bummer, the college just called and I have to go back to work. At least I'll get paid for hacking on a computer and they have internet service so I can keep up with things. It will cut into my playing time but oh well. Lifes rough and then you marry Fruella.