Game Engine Buyout for Modding

Bought used.

The copy I have of the game I bought used, pre-played at a game store in the mall. I see why the original buyer got rid of it. Regreattably, that seems to happen a lot. I'm still playing the game while many others trashed it. Troika and Atari probably aren't aware of it, but they lost a lot of sales because the game didn't play well. They should be made aware of such things.

 

Livonya- I appreciate your trepidation, you have done a lot of work to make the game all it could be, and I know that I for one really appreciate your work and dedication. I think the first step is to get the source to the engine in some way. If we do it officially with what ever remains of Troika, then we will not be going foul of any license agreement. Atari, and WoTC should have absolutely nothing to do with the engine. Now what is done with that engine will be up to the group.

Morpheus and Gaear- I agree that both Atari and the Troika developers were aware of the modding community built around this game, I believe the developers were even eliciting the help of the community to make patches to the game. One of the Co8 members may know better.

In the corporate world I work in, the legal representatives come up with the most restrictive, and limiting language possible, to make sure they are covered. However I also believe there are a few legal loops when people and entities are allowed to violate a license with the knowledge of the license holder. So Troika, and Atari allowing modding communities to exist on their own moderated forums should give legal grounds for voiding of at least some of that restrictive licensing. I am not a legal professional, but I believe that is how it works. If someone knows more professionally let us all know. In the end I don’t think at this point there would be a reason, or incentive for anyone to stop the modding community built up around ToEE, as long as it remains non-profit.

That brings me full circle, who is interested in getting together and seeing if we can get the game engine either through GPL, purchase, whatever??

If people are legitimately interested I will look into building a website, and getting a non-profit set up for the purpose of getting this abandonware released to those who care for it the most.

In the end, with Troika and the game engine, I believe it never hurts to ask.

-Firestrand

 

Liv, your point is that an enhanced engine is better. That is quite true, but you enhance a "base", and the one who owns it can basically sue your bottom off especially if you do better than they did.

On the other hand, opting to acquire the right to develop a modified version of the engine seems a much better way. After all, they get some money for something they have gotten the most out of already, so it comes as an unexpected extra. The trick is to negotiate a reasonable price or give them a chunk like the right to use the modified engine in future games without paying the engine developers anything. The tricky part is - if you intend to make money out of your labour, this trade is a real bad one.

Morpheus, you have also put substantial effort into this, so would you and Liv share your views as to whether having the source code would allow you to improve it enough to have something that allows you to develop RPG modules based off TSR's worlds? Or are you thinking to develop different rules? The key issue is - if you use D&D, you are very much in need to get WOTC's blessing, and unless they make cash off your work, they would not do it.

So, Firestarand, the whole idea comes to two basic options - acquire the engine and use it commercially to produce a base game with high modding expansion capabilities like NWN, and sell at very low prices just to cover cost (say modules are free, the core game plus the engine are bought at below USD 10); alternatively - negotiate a contract with WOTC and ATARI to use the engine, develop content, paying them relatively less for this right, however allowing them to use the new engine and some of your "premium" content at a future, effectively "taking over" what you developed.

Third option is do money raising for buying the engine, set ourselves as a corporation under US or UK law and try to make some money to stay afloat financially while existing as an entity capable of defending the legal right to distribute the new engine and content for it freely (or, "free from WOTC and ATARI").

Whatever the community decides, I said I am willing to help on the financial part, so if there is a lawyer down there we can pull up something workable, if the creators are comfortable with what they can do with the engine, and the community wants to go ahead with this. Meanwhile, I believe that since Firestrand started this, maybe we should have an initiative group set up, and I propose him as chairman.

 

What happens?

What happens to games that fail and don't sell very well? I know songwriters copyright their stuff and will not let it be downloaded, unless they are paid a fee. If Troika, Atari, and WoTC want some money for their support, I could support that if the price isn't too high. I would gladly contribute to such a venture. It doesn't hurt to ask. If they say no, drop dead, or the price is too high, well, so be it.

 

Well it looks like we have three supporters for giving this a try.

Does anyone have any objections to at least seeing what Troika says?

I will also be looking into what is needed to start a non-profit organization with the goal of gaining rights to abandonware source. Any thoughts on a name?

-Firestrand

 

Just a thought

It might be good to release the 3.05 beta first. It would be a bummer to have it this close, only to be completely derailed by someone with a mean streak.

Unless of course the idea is to make some money from the patch release. =)

 

Find out.

I think you need to find out what the status of Troika is and what their intentions are. If they do totally quit and leave the game business, maybe then they might discuss something. It doesn't hurt to ask, I hope.

 

The problem is?

The problem is that ToEE, as a business venture was and is a failure, for Troika, Atari, and WoTC. Nobody knows what the status of Troka is. Atari doesn't seem to care one way or another. I'm sure the people at WoTC are disappointed and ARE NOT going to allow the D&D namesake to be used for anything less than a quality venture that sells and makes MONEY. I don't know if it would hurt to talk to them at least. I'd really be curious to see what they say.

 

I guess I don't really care either way.

No matter what happens they can't stop me from modding the game, and in truth I am not modding so other people can play the game. Sure it is great when other people can play too...

But I started modding so that I could fix problems that were preventing me from enjoying the game.

I have yet to finish the game, and while I know a lot about the game I have never actually played a real game past level 4 or 5.... I always get hung up on some annoying problem or feature... (Don't get me wrong I have fought almost every monster in the game in my control studio, and I have gone to almost every location to test things, but I have never done a real game).

I think I will soon have all of that fixed and I can sit down to enjoy some fun and difficult games...

I am actually doing 2 different mods... they are pretty much exactly the same, but one of them includes a Difficulty mod in which all monsters/NPCs are beefed up with larger hit dice, extra hit points, and extra levels... the concept for that mod is to make it a pure strategy mod where each battle is an intense struggle that requires exceptionally well played choices on the part of the human player...

- Livonya

 

My question is when did this become about money? Atari/Troika/WotC will likely continue to turn a blind eye to the modding activities so long as no one tries to charge for them.

 

Money issues.

Two things get pet peoples attention ; sex and money. If you're talking about buying rights and permissions then money is an issue. As long as nobody loses any money, nobody seems to care. Is having access to the game engine and code really that necessary and important, and worth the cost?

 

im all for improving the game and adding to it as we go but wizgeorge is right. do we have to have the engine and access to the core to do this. if so then im all for aquiring it the engine and permission from WoTC,if it is nessarry, to make this the best game ever. im not sure what i can do to help in our goals but im for it and will try to pitch in somehow.

 

The issue is - if somebody wants to buy something it is worth something to him, so why not try and bargain? That has always been the approach of corporates even for poor brands. The thing is - if you put in place an adequate buying strategy and make an exemptive offer, which sounds like take it or leave it guys, we'd rather have the engine than not, but not at ANY price, then they have to think of whether they are faced with a basically disorganized community - say a couple of guss and gals, or with someone who actually has the expertise to negotiate a tough deal. If it's the latter, there will likely be some arrangement reached, if it is the former, they'll always count us a group of suckers willing to make them at least some extra money out of TOEE.

Now, is it worth asking - yes, it is. I'd propose however that the enquiry is worded carefully by someone in the corporate world, which Fire appears to be. Further, we have to start not with "we are interested whether TOEE engine is for sale", but rather with what are their current plans for developing software based on the unmodified current TOEE engine, and what are their basic views on partnerships using this engine, joint effort on modifying the engine, or possibly - selling rights to the engine, or just selling the source code, knowing that without heavy modifying it the buyer would not have really the right to the "current" TOEE engine. It is always better not to let them know exactly what you intend to offer at the end of the day. Also, it is better to negotiate on behalf of unnamed client rather than say - we are interested. This way you can keep the distance.

Finally, yes I realize that people like Liv basically mod away because they like to create and they like to use something and make it better. But there is one issue - any content written based on a copyrighted engine for which (a) no permission to create has been granted by the holder of the copyright, and (b) which cannot be legally claimed to be created by an identifiable person, can be claimed to be the property of the owner of the copyright. So, what Liv writes is basically property of ATARI and they may do whatever they want with it, even prohibiting Liv from using it, funny as it may sound. Why? Because Liv has not registered the right to be acknowledged as the author of this content in an enforceable way. That is the ugly reality.

So, what Fire proposes - setting up an entity that holds the right to the modified content and selects to develop and distribute freely such content is a good solution. Enough people have put an effort into making content free of charge. I am willing to help them guarantee that "free" and the continuity of content development by giving free financial advise. That's what Investment Bankers are for (hm, people aliken us to the Balor, I know, but we are a nice Balor, you know).

So, Fire, if you need further assistance, you can reach me at:

Martin_R_Petrov@Hotmail.COM or
MPetrov@Postbank.BG

 

Even if they are willing to sell the engine wouldn't the new owners be under the same obligation as the old to wotc? As I was saying before the children and brothel were removed, it seems to me they wouldn't want to put themselves in a position were anything could be added to the game, regardless of how immoral they thought it was. I doubt enough money could be made for atari to take that kind of risk, to have their name associated with something the company would have no control over. Beside isn't atari the only one who can even own d&d material? Wouldn't we have to buy the exclusive rights to create d&d stuff?