fun with corpses

yep, theres nothing wrong with a 1 int - provided that nothing they were immune to like mind effects was linked to check for a positive int score

as a side note, monster plant is listed under construct, elemental and ooze entries too...

 

Regarding turning, there really does seem to be no logical limit to commanding undead as a cleric, as allyx said.

I consoled in a bunch of groaning spirits (the 10HD wraiths) and found:

the required level for commanding (rather than just rebuking) is there - you can only command monsters half your Cleric level in Hit-Dice, Improved turning is counted towards this though, so you can command a 10HD groaning spirit at level 19 if you have that feat.

However, once you qualify for being able to command a certain type of undead - there is no effective HD limit, you can command 10 groaning spirits with your lvl 20 rebuking, capped by the summoning cap, just as allyx said thats 100HD total.

(further uneccesary confirmation, intelligent undead like the groaning spirit do not suffer from paralysis )

 

Will saves are based on WIS.

 

just a SRD rules comment - Living creatures/characters have a positive value of INT and if it/they receive damage to INT where INT drops to zero is supposed to kill it/them.

 

Things like Vampires & Liches need their Int to be in the range of normal to very high; especially Liches. Vampires retain their normal human ability scores & character classes, with some slight adjustments, of course. And your Int has got to be 18 to cast the highest level spells Liches require to re-animate. Just in case we ever decide to put a vampire in Hommlet, re-create Strahd Von Zarovich, or mod in Asberdies & Acererak. With all the talent you guys have, it should be a "no-brainer"...

 

Let's say for talking purposes that changing INT to 1 for undead works. Am I understanding this correctly, in that, only the creatures from Animate Dead [skeletons and zombies] are the only undead we are talking about changing the INT to have a positive value of 1 (one)? Or, are we just talking about changing the INT stat of skeletons?

 

I'm assuming any undead that can be commanded and thus be subject to the bug.

 

well, i was thinking that all mindless undead (zombies/skeletons) could have this done to them - the only issue being, as krunch said, any int drain/damage would kill them.

However, as undead, they should automatically be immune to such drains, mind affecting spells, poisons, diseases and so on...

can anyone think of a particular instance where they would not be immune to such damage?

liches, vampires, ghosts, ghouls, ghasts, lacedons, wights, wraiths etc are a non issue, as they already possess proper intelligence scores, so they would not need to be modified.

 

from what I can tell, the only spells that would have an effect (if undead suddenly lost their immunity) would be ...

Feeblemind
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

If the target creature fails a Will saving throw, its Intelligence and Charisma scores each drop to 1. The affected creature is unable to use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills, cast spells, understand language, or communicate coherently. Still, it knows who its friends are and can follow them and even protect them. The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind. A creature that can cast arcane spells, such as a sorcerer or a wizard, takes a -4 penalty on its saving throw.

Touch of Idiocy

Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Living creature touched Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: No Spell Resistance: Yes

With a touch, you reduce the target’s mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can’t reduce any of these scores below 1.

This spell’s effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level.

 

well neither of those spells are going to be able to reduce intelligence below 1 - and in the case of intelligent undead, the hope is that they have their correct immunities to mind affecting spells in their type already, otherwise the issue would crop up eventually anyway right?

anyways, i tested a few things

bestow curse (int version, in this case) will work on undead, however, the paralysis only seems to come into effect upon resting, rather than immediately upon ability drain. Since the undead arent about to rest in combat, and the spell doesnt even last long enough to bother you through an 8 hour rest, then i dont see a big deal

technically intelligent undead SHOULD be able to be rendered paralyzed with enough int drain, their immunity is to con/dex/str drain/damage and mind effects, so far as i know, bestow curse is neither. but if im correct this wont make a difference either as there is no immediate effect for being reduced to 0 int.

change your int stat to 0 and you only become paralyzed after resting.

 

Good stuff! It would be awesome if the undead paralysis issue was finally laid to rest.

Some things to bear in mind: the paralysis doesn't occur simply by resting. It occurs when 24 hrs have passed. Take your intelligent skellys out for a walk around the overland map for a day, see if they still remain para' free. Also, try casting spells/effects on these new guys to see if they retain their base immunities to verify that their undead benefits are not tied to Int. Spells like Poison, Charm Monster, Searing Light spring to mind.

Also, a 0 Int does not kill a creature. A creature only dies if their Con drops to 0; any other score dropping basically paralyzes them.

Ability Damaged
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged

 

Tried your walkabout test aeroldoth; they passed

i've tried a couple of spells already, which they had proper racial resistance to - havent been too thorough though, as i doubt that the undead immunities would be tied to intelligence - It occured to me as i was casting poison on my new brainiac skeleton:

Since most of the undead in the game (ie. anything other than skeletons/skeleton gnolls and zombies) actually already have intelligence scores, and im going to assume that they resisted stuff properly - so its kinda doubtful that the designers would re-invent the wheel for no apparent reason for the mindless undead.

bestow curse was the only spell i could think of that could get around the 'no mind-affecting' deal, and even then, as i said, intelligence drain does not currently come into effect until time passes via rest, or as aeroldoth suggested, overland travel. The int-drain thing is actually a bug, which if it were addressed, COULD prove to be an issue with bestow curse being used on skeletons/zombies, but unless we go and implement higher level mindless undead (which i would love, dont get me wrong ) you're using a (for ToEE) relatively high level spell to kill a very low-level monster

That said, getting animate dead to work on pretty much anything would be ten kinds of awesome. Zombies would be easy enough to do with new skins, though they wouldnt stumble around or anything dum dee dummmm