Equipment question

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by ConjurerDragon, Feb 18, 2013.

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  1. Number99

    Number99 kicking Iuz

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    And each time I use a ray my dex increases. I'm now at dex 116 :dizzy:
     
  2. maalri

    maalri Immortal

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    I am not sure if I should put his in here, open a new Thread, or add it to the "requests for 8.0 Modpack" thread. It seems to be appropriate for each.

    Here it is: Is there any way to Mod out that stupid "Cover" penalty for firing into melee?

    I understand it can be a valid penalty sometimes, but it is utterly ridiculous how many times ToEE applies it.

    For example, my Ranger (I always seem to have one in the party- Ranged specialized) has to take two feats to be able to fire into melee already without hitting combatants, I can understand and agree with that (though ONE Feat should seem sufficient to me), but if I am ALREADY penalized for firing past my wolf companion, or fellow party memory, and used two feats to overcome that penalty, then WHY is the game going to give me yet another -4 to overcome?

    If an opponent is behind a rock or tree, he is covered. A battle, as any good DM or experienced player will agree, is a fluid thing, and the enemy is not behind something all the time, that is the reason for the Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot Feats, to hit the right person in times like that.

    I understand, also, that the computer cannot show a "fluid" battle, and that is why the whole Cover penalty should be dropped. I mean, truthfully, how many times do we actually come upon an enemy that really uses Cover? Virtually never.

    This is a unfair penalty to ranged attacks that, after what I think is fair and balanced consideration, I seriously believe should be done away with. If that can be modded.

    Is anyone else with me on this?

    And, what do the powers that be (you awesome Modders, you) say about the capability to do so?
     
  3. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Established Member Supporter

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    Neither of the two ranged feats (Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot) has something to do with cover. The first gives you +1 to your attack roll within close range and the 2nd allows you to shoot at enemies that are in a melee with a friend to avoid that you cause friendly fire.

    Having cover is something else. You can´t shoot someone behind a rock or other obstacle and expect to hit him just as well as if he was standing in the open.

    And if the battle doesn´t seem fluid enough your Ranger could take a move action and then fire perhaps from a better angle?
     
  4. maalri

    maalri Immortal

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    You are correct and actually helping me prove my point. The battle is not happenning behind cover. The game is unfairly attributing the cover penalty for a normal out in the open battle, which the Precise Shot (with the prerequisite Point Blank Shot) feats should nullify.

    As for a move action, there are two issues with that. First, it takes away one of the two or more shots the Ranged Specced Ranger gets (I think removing half your posibility to hit is exceedingly unfair) and it is not always possible to move "into the open" in one move action, sometimes not even in a full action (taking two or more attacks away) and occassionally not ever.

    A good example is the Smigmal fight. If I surround her with my party, she had no external cover source, my Ranger should be able to peg her with no penalties other than firing into melee (which is offset by the Precise Shot). However, if she is surrounded by party members, there is no where my Ranger can stand and shoot from that Smigmal is not errouneously recieving the Cover bonus. She is not "covered" by anything other than the melee that is happenning around her, which is what Precise Shot is supposed to nullify. And for the cost of two feats, it dang well should!
     
  5. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    I have to agree 100% with maalri on this one.

    What kind of cover can a hill giant get from me firing over a wolf, my wolf ... that's trained to work in tandem with me?
     
  6. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    I dislike that cover is applied flatly as +4 - firing at a troll over a halfling is rather different to firing at a halfling over a troll - but otherwise the game is correct. There are rules for if the creature is way taller than the cover - firing at a Storm Giant's head over a halfling should not invoke cover - but because the game doesn't really extend meaningfully into the z-axis, I doubt they are utilised, which is a shame. But in this case, Smigmal is taking cover beind your own party members, and th game is correct.

    And no I don't think we can't change it :( I put some thought and effort into this when I was trying to get the Improved Precise Shot feat going, and ended up havng to give up.
    Really? Awww man, I tested that 80 ways to Sunday. Any specific spell?
     
  7. zugschef

    zugschef Established Member

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    that's why you get a penalty for firing at a halfling, since he is small, and a bonus for firing at a troll who is large. and after all, the rules are approximations. and on top there is total cover which prevents anything, so there you go.
     
  8. Number99

    Number99 kicking Iuz

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    As far as I can see, it's with scorching ray. But as I said, I'm still playing 7.5NC. Maybe you did fix it for 7.7?

    If it makes you feel better, I don't mind the high dex... :twisted:
     
  9. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    It makes me feel slightly better :p
    Fair point Zugschef, but if I was DMing, there's times I'd apply +4, and times I'd reduce it to +2 or +1.
     
  10. maalri

    maalri Immortal

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  11. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    That's funny.
    Correct. But I would still argue that you are describing is not 'Precise shot', which is the capacity to hit a moving target (in a melee), but rather 'Improved Precise Shot' which is the capacity to ignore cover.

    Hitting a moving target is hard, hitting a moving target behind cover is harder :shrug: But that Smigmal fight is one of the few where you can't relocate. Hence the advantage of Manyshot - you can spend a move relocating and still get 2 arrows off.
     
  12. maalri

    maalri Immortal

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    Not to beat a dead horse, but I still disagree.

    Now I do understant Improved Precise Shot- I would always assume it is for when the enemy is behind a rock or tree and firing at you from a distance (or trying to hide).

    That normally provides them with the cover bonus ranging anywhere from -4 to -8, I believe.

    However... 1. How often does that happen in this game? and 2. If you had just one person fighting one person in a melee in PnP would you ever give that enemy the cover bonus?

    Now set that up in ToEE. It will give them that, all the time -unless you move, which is not always possible. Melee is fluid so your Ranger should not HAVE to move, the fight will be moving in front of the Ranger and you they will use their Precise Shot Feat to shoot the right person. Enemy on party member, or party members, should never get the cover bonus.

    If the enemy is behind cover, like a rock, door, tree, and taking cover, then and only then should it be applied. Since that is next to never in ToEE, the whole bonus should be dropped or somehow offset, if possible.

    I know nothing of Modding, but if the bonus cannot be removed, perhaps the value cn be changed to 0?

    My two coppers worth...
     
  13. maalri

    maalri Immortal

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    Oh, I just hit 1K Posts. Yeah Me!
     
  14. Nightcanon

    Nightcanon Garrulous Halfling

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    I agree with Maalri- firing into melee is dealt with by the penalty for doing so and is then undealt with by the precise shot feat tree. I'm pretty sure that in previous editions firing into melee led to complex calculations based on the sizes of the participants to randomise who you hit, simplfied in 3.x to a miss chance. I'm pretty sure that the justification for this was that melee combat is a swirling maelstrom as Maalri describes, so you can't claim that the bad guy is always between your fighter and your bowman (but, wrt cover, neither can he claim always to be on the other side of your fighter, either). The advent of flanking does somewhat confuse this, though.
     
  15. Nightcanon

    Nightcanon Garrulous Halfling

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    Having said that, two feats is pretty cheap given what it allows you to do.
     
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