Enemy strategy ideas

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by anatoliy, Jun 20, 2021.

Remove all ads!
  1. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    12,488
    Likes Received:
    279
    Its all very well to say Stun is overpowered i it can Disarm, but its right there not just in the description of Stun but specifically in the Stunning Fist bit, so there's no question.

    The only 'problem' is making sure the AI does it back to you. Otherwise yes, its overpowered. But that's the issue with all this new content being added.
     
    anatoliy likes this.
  2. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    59
    Stunning fist is not really what I was thinking of. The thing that's notable about stun is that there's basically no general protection against it, and no way to heal it. So at higher levels when effects start stunning for multiple rounds, that can just take someone out for an entire combat.

    Stunning fist is actually much weaker in ToEE because of the way it counts durations. You're supposed to count from when the effect started, but it counts at the beginning of each round. So if the monk is last in the initiative order, stunning fist essentially does nothing outside of a full attack. I wonder if it's possible to fix that (in general).

    Edit: my comment about durations seems inaccurate. I just notice that Daze, which has a similar 1 round duration, behaves correctly. So it seems like maybe only stun is broken, making stunning fist sometimes worthless.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2021
    anatoliy likes this.
  3. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    12,488
    Likes Received:
    279
    Weren't you going to rewrite the combat in Python? :D

    Which effects are you thinking of for Stun that do multiple rounds? Sound Burst is only 1 round, ditto a catastrophic fail with Detect Evil, while Power Word Stun is lvl 8 and thus should be powerful. Also, I think Break Enchantment is meant to 'heal' it?
     
  4. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages:
    204
    Likes Received:
    34
    I applaud the effort to make enemy strategy more dangerous.

    Stun is typically best aimed to remove weaker hp enemies like casters and rogue/archers. I guess my point is that it can already do that. Is a PW stun going to be aimed at the fighter? - well, maybe for the basic AI. (2d4 stun is likely terminal, whereas 1d4 is not).

    edit:
    also Sound Burst is imho one of the better cleric/bard offensive spells for that level range. I found it quite effective throughout the game as a battle starter, not only due to the damage type but also for the fort save. It doesn't really need more and a fort save = not that practical for fighter-types. There are many other meh spells that could use a boost.

    However, IMHO there are much more common and lower-level play issues in ToEE that need addressing:
    • invisibility detection/removal and promoting enemy use, especially greater invisibility
    • taking down mirror images/stoneskin as a priority with dispels or mm and promoting much enemy use of these, even via the occasional unsalvageable wand.
    • detecting stealth and promoting enemy use of stealth
    • better weapons = if crafting is so readily available to the PC, then why not give good unsalvageable weapons to the enemy. The feats are trivially available for PCs and take no time. This also might make the disarm argument a thing (weapon disappears on enemy) for the PC.
    • charm spamming
    And so on.

    Does this sound a lot like the old BG mage stuff? - yes. Yet ToEE mirror image and stoneskin and all that stuff is just as powerful...and multi-classes with access to that or wands do this well.


    You could attach this to an extra option on Temple+, for those that don't like equality or plan on using a less-optimal party.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
    anatoliy likes this.
  5. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2004
    Messages:
    819
    Likes Received:
    83
    Grease could have another submenu like resist energy with Floor Area, Disarm Weapon, Disarm Shield, and Resist Grapple.
     
  6. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    59
    Well, specifically I was thinking about something I happened across the other day, where some guy was whining that his fighter was out of commission for an entire 2 hour combat because of a horned devil's stun ability. That's DC 27 save or be stunned 1d4 rounds on every spiked chain attack. That's not really relevant to ToEE either, though.

    Anyhow, what I meant was, you can protect yourself from Power Word: Stun, because it's an enchantment. It can be beaten by Mind Blank, and can be removed by Dispel Magic and Break Enchantment. But that won't work against the sound spells that stun, which require silence for protection. And neither of those might work against some monster with a special stunning effect. Stun requires source-specific preparations to do something about, if you can do anything. At least in general. If you can be undead or a golem or something, that's a blanket protection.

    I do see that Heal removes stun, though, so I'm inclined to think that the guy complaining just has a group that plays like jerks (which seems to me like it's the cause of the majority of online complaints about 'balance' and stuff; not the actual rules).
     
  7. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    59
    Yeah, I've thought of radial options. You could have primary, secondary or armor in addition to area. The only issue with that would be that you could pick something that doesn't make sense, like greasing the offhand weapon of someone without an offhand weapon. Maybe that isn't a big deal, though.

    I don't think you can actually grease a shield to any effect. They're strapped to your arm, not something you can just drop. Even bucklers are described that way, which I guess is not very historically accurate.
     
  8. anatoliy

    anatoliy Established Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2017
    Messages:
    518
    Likes Received:
    136
    Many spells look silly for memorizing by PC, but very potent for npc.

    In SGoS module there is one boss fight with Cleric and her minions. She uses her Wand of Sound Burst constantly, so my spell casters often were stunned.

    First she uses SB and then summons Brown Bear near Wizard PC.

    Now Player need to split his group between helping the Wizard and moving forward to neutralize the chick.

    Then she uses Curse on closest Fighter. If close combat then Inflict Moderate several times. If in bad shape then Invisibility and cures herself.
     
  9. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2004
    Messages:
    819
    Likes Received:
    83
    Consider Sword Coast Stratagems (SCS) for Baldur's Gate. I liked it because it made casters prebuff, dispel, and act intelligently.
     
  10. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages:
    204
    Likes Received:
    34
    Sound Burst is very potent for PCs for this exact reason. As I mentioned, I used it even at high levels; for example it will fairly reliably stun the high level Siren Cultist encounters that can cast a fairly high DC and disruptive charm on the party. And the damage type works on most everything in the AoE.

    Clerics don't currently have a lot of good offensive spells that are AoE/CC until many levels later (GR. Command?). Most CC are iffy single target (fear, command, hold, etc.)

    Silence maybe works best if the AI puts it in a useful area, but I think the AI currently has to target something and a ground spot would have to be scripted. In fact, I'm not actually sure how this works in ToEE - there may be saving throws even then.

    TLDR. My point was: do you overload one spell and that's the only thing enemy clerics cast? It will be more effective, but rather boring. There are so many other spells that need work.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
  11. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    59
    That sounds pretty cool. I'm kind of struggling to remember encounters where magic was a serious threat in ToEE.

    For the record, I'd lean toward stun disarming not being overpowered. It gives a little more juice to the less powerful occurrences, and in the situations where stun effects are really powerful, additional disarming is probably not a big factor. You'll be disarmed anyway when you're dead after 4 rounds of sneak attacks or whatever.

    Edit: yeah, silence is broken. It allows saving throws for everyone in the area of effect. I'm unsure if it protects you from sonic attacks even when you succeed on that saving throw. (Now that I'm looking, I'm not sure if it protects you from sonic attacks period.)

    Edit 2: Spoiler alert. It doesn't. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2021
    anatoliy likes this.
  12. anatoliy

    anatoliy Established Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2017
    Messages:
    518
    Likes Received:
    136
    Idea - Improved Faint for Rogue builds

    Fighter 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Faint.
    Rogue 1: Sneak Attack

    Take ranseur, when near enemy - try Faint as move action to deny dex bonus, make trip attack, attack again, deal normal and sneak bonus.
     
  13. anatoliy

    anatoliy Established Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2017
    Messages:
    518
    Likes Received:
    136
    I've been researching tactics approach for a month now. Digging into T+ pathfinding etc.



    This experiment of getting spots around target and going to it with attack in mind shows interesting things:
    1. By default, T+ will allow more than 5 feet reach between combatants centers. So if both combatant diameters are 5 feet, then typical (sword reach) would be 3 feat. I think it's by design.
    2. Withdraw will only ignore AOO during first 5 feet crossed, afterwards AOO will occur. This is absolutely correct and nicely implemented. You can spot it on the video, the Orc is doing withdraw when returning to his start location.
    3. Approaching without AOO is not yet tested. I need to check @Sitra Achara 's new pathfinding flag first.
     
    Shiningted and hammyh like this.
Our Host!