Dwarf Paladins and drinking habits

@Noran the Axe: There is a joke in Germany [or, at least, there used to be] that if a boy is old enough to reach the counter top of a bar at a pub when standing on the floor [in Germany], the boy is allowed to drink beer. However, during the couple of years that I lived in Germany, I never even once saw or heard of children [up to teenagers under 17 years of age] drinking any beer or wine or being offered beer or wine by adults in peoples home or at pubs. Everyone who drank was always 17 years old or older.

IMO - What I am referring to as far as drinking goes--it's not applying the Christian belief system to it--it's how people behave, act, and conduct themselves in public when intoxicated.
* Dwarves could possibly be the exception with respect to drinking as there is nothing in the rulebooks--yet no written rules on paper does not neccessarily make some kinds or types of unlawfulness to be lawful and good, maybe so or maybe not so with respect to Dwarves.
Otherwise, Paladins are religious pious zealot holy fighters [lawful good] who would not want their reputation to be soiled or tarnished or let others have a bad image or misperception of what a Paladin stands for and upholds. At least, the developers who coded the game decided to make it that way.

 

Noran, You are right that cultural influences would affect how a character thinks and behaves and the flavor of a class, but that does not change how a character class works. Say a Cleric gets power from his diety then no matter the culture that is the case and he/she has to obey that deity's rules or fall out of favor and lose those powers. If a Wizard/Sorceror gets powers from magic then that is where they get it from no matter the culture and if they do not follow the techniques for doing so they can't. Similarly, REGARDLESS of a Paladin's culture, he/she has to obey the code of conduct unique to Paladins that allows them to maintain holiness and perform miracles. That special power that is similar but very different from Clerics, they do not even have to follow a diety from what I understand, their physical and spiritual "state" must be holy, and regardless of culture that cannot change and the things causing his/her holiness cannot be set aside as THAT is the source of his/her power. This is why a Paladin can be turned by an evil cleric, because he is actually Holy in physical and spiritual state, but not a Cleric who may not actually be holy in physical state, just in spirit and thus not have his very body destroyed.

 

Exactly , this the very reasoning behind my belief that dwarf paladins and clerics might even be "required" to drink, since it is so close to the dwarven heart. But, I don't think that dwarves would drink at work ( lunch break is not work, btw). As further proof, consider the dwarf's racial bonus to toxins, which is most likely from their long history as lovers of drink :doublethu . I disagree, however, that the only "code" to be sure of (on the part of pal.'s) is the LG one. PHB v. 3.5; pg.44; second column; eighth para.: "Code of conduct"; states: A paladin must be LG... Additionally a paladin's code requires... Indicating that a paladin is held to an even higher standard than other LG characters. Part of this code states " not using toxins" (admittedly this prohibition is combat-related, but a stringent DM could, well...), and that a pal. may not continue to associate with somene who consistently offends her moral code. By this standard, one drinking contest would not require a pal. to leave the party. But, it might prevent the pal. from participating in one ( a drinking contest and an ale with supper are quite different). In PHB 3.5; pg. 43; first column, para. 4 "Races"; third sentence; "Dwarves are sometimes paladins, but becoming a paladin may be hard on a dwarf because it means putting the duties of a paladin's life before the duties to family, clan, and king." It is truly a confusing issue, with no easy, single solution. It would seem we are stuck with the determinations of the DM, or author of the module in question.

 

Now that's the smartest thing anyone's said yet about this. You've helped me make many of the points I raised earlier. I'm glad you finished this way, 'cause that "they drink & it helps make them immune to toxins" crap is the exact opposite. Idiotic. Anyone who knows anything about dwarves knows the real reason for it, and it has nothing to do with their level of alcohol consumption. The reverse is more likely the case; resistance to toxins gives them a higher tolerance for drink.

BTW...this thread has surpassed the moronic, and I am forthwith dis-associating myself from it in the interest of moving on to something more interesting than whether or not "Sir Codpiece the Dwarf" is able to have a beer without offending the gods...:jerkin: It was pretty friggin' stupid from jump street, but I guess I just can't resist wallowing in the muck sometimes.

Get a life!

 

you are right, I didn't mean to say it was the only reason for their resistance, only that it may be a contrbuting, I apologise for stating my point so badly.

Pity you feel this way. It is true that this is not the most critical of topics, but all questions deserve answers, and all answers deserve explanations. besides, it is a nice diversion from...

This type of judgmental oop:

 

I guess that we'll just have to agree to disagree. The diety that gives the paladin's powers is the one that determines if he could or could not perform a specific action and determine if it is holy or unholy. A dwarven diety being in question here for paladins and clerics of the dwarven race would have the culture of the dwarven race as a guideline - just like a paladin of a human faith with human morals and codes of condut (such as Christianity) would have human morals and codes of conduct. It IS a cultural thing. The gods are based upon the culture that they are associated with. Not all cultures and religions in real life find everything the same nor deem heavy drinking as a problem. The idea of intoxication prohibited free will is also something that I call into question. If anything, alcohol lower inhibitions and "enhances" free will. Maybe that would be a reason to call it into question - too much intoxication = a chaoitc act (?). Still, it should be weighed in as a cultural thing and the gods associated with the culture in question.

Just because a dwarven diety would have paladins and LG clerics, doesn't mean that their point of view on codes of conduct are the same as other diety codes of conduct (such as humans).

Again.... we'll just have to agree to disagree on this since I haven't seen any point of view to the contrary that actually makes logical sense without bringing human values and morals into play.

 

Read the rulebooks the powers for paladins are not granted by a diety. Read the posts they have made the rules clear. Look if you don't like the Paladin Character stick to fighters. Then you won't need to invent house rules to support your viewpoints.

Edit- I apologize for the flaming rant, but refuse to retract it. This started in another thread moved over here when it went dead over there and I'm not sure it doesn't belong over in general discussion. Everyone has a right to their own opinions and I do not begrudge anyone that right. I JUST CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE, give it a rest, everyone please, this thread has gone as far as taking Druids, shamans from a violent and barbaric culture and made them modern day environmentalists, and vegetarians, so I beseech you if you must continue with this please move it over to general discussion, where I can just mark my comments as a rant and not worry about it. :tetter:

 

I've decided that it doesn't matter. I mean, if a skeleton ( which is supposed to be mindless with a wisdom of 10) can be a priest who casts third level divine spells, then a paladin can go as far as slaughtering expectant mothers and devuoring their unborn children. I would understand a "lich" doing what this, so-called skeleton preist, accomplished ( the lich could do far worse, in fact). So, drink up paladins, get blitzed, who cares.
Every time I play through this part, I get very dark about it. Apologies if anyone is offended.

 

As am I. Damn, I was slightly disturbed yesterday :yikes:. Apologies, again, for the public rant. It will prob'ly happen again

 

and now Lord Spike can lock it to end this huge argument :jerkin:

cos everyone knows the DM always wins (your party Lvl 8 blunders into a lich riding an a chariot towed by 8 adult black dragons and his legion of hillgiants, ettins and a black pudding) and as trokia is the DM for this game I guess what they say goes so get the fuck over it.

btw the skeletal priest is a lot like 2 creatures from Libris Mortis - the book of the undead. Pg 94 is the deathlock an undead spellcaster challenge rating of 3, Pg 114 is the Necropolitan also can be an undead spellcaster, the sample in the book is a wizard (chalenge rating 5) but from what I could tell it could've been any class.