Darley, worst built sorceress ever

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by taltamir, Apr 19, 2010.

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  1. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    you keep on saying I hate darley.
    Lets ignore her "build quality" for a moment...
    I am upset that she is missing 13 spells that she should have, that her highest level spell and only level 5 spell is bugged and doesn't work.
    This is strictly because I do NOT hate her, I like her very much and would like to play with her... but she is total dead weight which makes me sad.
     
  2. ShadowDeth

    ShadowDeth Save Versus : Stupid

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    taltamir - I think you're a little too "beardy" for most of the users of this forum.

    I think you are contributing alot of valuable RAW bug hunting and finding problems with the game, but beyond that - you're not friendly or personable. I'd even say obsessed due to the frequency of your posts.

    We get it. You're a power gamer and you like masturbating on your stats and item crafts. You have to realize, you're probably in the lower 5% of the general users of this game. I've "also" been playing TOEE for much longer than I care to admit and I've watched this forum turn into what it is and watched the modding efforts blossom into the slick production we have today.

    I can safely say that very few people play the game like you do, so relax. And yes, I am patronizing you.
     
  3. Necroticpus

    Necroticpus Cthulhu Ftaghn!

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    I always get into trouble for going over the top talking about cop stuff. It's kind of an odd feeling seeing someone else get in trouble. It's like another whole new experience for me in the ToEE world. I'm strangely comfortable with it.

    As far as Darley goes though, it kind of makes sense that a demon trapped in an elemental fire node might lose their spells, not having access to study materials and whatnot. Even though sorcerers don't have to memorize spells like wizards, they must have to memorize the spells they do get, don't they? Or do they just get their spells from "the force"?

    And she's a demon. Maybe being cut off from hell in an elemental plane weakens her.
     
  4. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    Not the case at all. using effective tactics that are part of the game is in no way "power gaming". And bringing masturbation into it is uncalled for.

    You are reading half the story and jumping to conclusion. I didn't describe my long experience with the game and mods to BRAG or lend pseudo authority to my opinion... I described it as a retort to the comments such as "maybe you should play the game instead of talking about it" and "when you have been around as long as I have"...
    Both are condescending remarks directed at me that attack me and not my arguments. I retorted by "I have been around and I have been playing"... Which was defensive, but I should NOT be required to justify myself in such a manner and there is no reason whatsoever to accuse me of being "beardy" and "not friendly or personable"

    I am extremely friendly and personable. I have not once attacked the other posters despite being given ample opportunity to do so. I merely defended myself AGAINST personal attacks.

    Play to win? use spells that work instead of spells that are broken (as in, bugged)? use spells that work instead of spells that are thematically appropriate but not useful (as in, ineffective in combat)? Last I checked in every DnD forum they call the "inentionally play weak characters" the "stormwind fallacy"... and if anything its 5% of players who do that, not vice versa.

    Actually YOU didn't patronize me, you CRITICIZED me... there is a huge difference. I think your criticism of me is uncalled for and unfair as you ignore the fact that I have been nothing but courteous and been besmirched by others WITHOUT retaliating. (example of possible retaliation is "you don't know how to play" or "you might enjoy sucking but I know how to play effectively") I never used those (and include them now only to clarify what ornery behavior on my part would have looked like, although it could be taken as a passive-aggressive backhanded method of delivering those insults, this is not my intent). I instead only addressed the issues at hand and occasionally ASKED that personal attacks against me stop.

    You criticized that (unfairly), but you didn't PATRONIZE me. To patronize me you would have to say something such as "maybe you should be playing the game instead of just talking about it" or "if you would have been around as long as I have"... both suggest there is something wrong with me, they suggest I am not playing the game but just running my mouth and thus anything I say is illegitimate because I couldn't know any better.

    And before someone says I am easily offended.. I have not been OFFENDED by those remarks, but I do think they are unfair and unbecoming and contribute nothing to a civilized discussion and only serve to weaken the argument of whomever uses them.

    PS.
    Are you insinuating that I am dismissive of the colossal efforts and success of the co8? Indeed co8 has done a tremendous job and the current iteration of the game is slick and polished. What does this have to do with criticizing a leftover from vanilla and suggesting it be corrected?
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2010
  5. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    Geez man, nobody's attacked you personally here. From what I know, people on this forum rarely do. I think you're reading into the posts something that's not there. :shrug:
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2010
  6. argikt

    argikt Member

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    I think Taltamir has reason in a lot of thinks... This demon is absolutely low power for a lvl10.


    Only a great discrepancy. Magic missile is the best quality / level spell in D&D. when I wrote "only 5d4+5, you can do best..." I was really surprise. A spell that can do 5d4+5, never misses, has no salvation and is level1 is imba.
     
  7. The Royal Canadian

    The Royal Canadian Established Member

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    Hi Argikit
    I absolutely agree with you on the Magic Missile. When I go to fight the Balor, my Wizard(s) have practically nothing BUT Magic Missile in their Level 1 and 2 Spell slots. Why ? Two reasons: First, the Balor has a fairly high Spell Resistance. Second, if your spell gets past that, he has some pretty good saving throws. I know that 1D4+1 isn't a lot of damage, but to paraphrase an old Chinese saying "It is better to do a little damage with a Magic Missile then to curse every time your archer misses with his/her "+3 Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst, Icy Burst, Holy Longbow"
    The Royal Canadian
     
  8. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    All is fair as long as it's delivered in the spirit of good will, which taltamir's posts always are.

    I don't want to be heavy-handed in censoring threads here though (and we don't normally need to do that since the vast majority of members are not of the 16 year old MMO mentality), so please feel free to work out any conflicts you may have without fear of the mods landing on you. Let's just not have that degenerate into anything less than the standard of conduct that we've become accustomed to, okay?
     
  9. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    Thank you Gaear. We are all mature here, so I think we can keep things civil.

    You make some good points there. It is very powerful for an SL1 spell, for the longest time I thought overpowered... however its power depends on your level, the higher your level, the closer it is to its max damage. By the time it gets "really good for a 1st level spell" you are fighting things with 200+ HP and capable of slinging level 5 spells; when its damage is worse then a bow at lower levels... well, it is worse damage then a bow... and you need those precious level 1 and level 2 slots for buffs.
    And it does get resisted by spell resistance...

    Magic missile is also very useful in busting up mirror image though :p.

    My logic here is that at that level you could by throwing around cloudkills, major buffs/debuffs, disintegrate (which do 5d6 on a successful save and much more on a failed one), and so on.
    And my level 1 slots and level 2 slots are far to precious... blinding the balor with glitterdust gives it 50% miss chance. Making it trip with grease gives you AoO and wastes its actions. etc.

    But... there is more then one way to skin a cat as they say... so there is really no problem with you repeated magic missiling someone to death. And it is a sensible spell for a sorcerer to take at higher levels as it gains more level 1 spells known.

    As far as missing attacks goes, spell resistance. :)
    In PnP you simply cast "assay spell resistance" giving yourself +10 to penetrate it. Combined with +4 from greater spell penetration (since you don't need to be your own crafter, you can afford it), +CL bonuses (such as from ioun stone), and +unammed bonuses to beat spell resistance, such as from robe of archmagi....
    well, it makes beating spell resistance significantly easier.

    PS. as far as "who cares about cantrips"... cantrips provide good utility, especially for a spontanous caster... cleric and wizard have to preselect them... so they are too limited... usually i just prepare read magic with all their slots to identify all the potions and scrolls I come across... with a spontanous caster I can do that even more effectively (converting higher level slots into it before resting), but I can also use the other cantrips... a light here, a detect magic there...
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2010
  10. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    Well, cantrips may be useful in PnP. In TOEECRPG though, there's little good they do after you're level 3 (aside from Read Magic, and maybe Resistance for the cloak crafting requirement).

    As for MM... Well, R.C. said it all IMO and I think best we can do is agree on our differences since there's little extra to say without repeating ourselves.
     
  11. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    read magic: used all the time
    resistance: used for crafting
    detect magic: useful to identify which items are magical and deserve a casting of identify (since identify costs 100gp per cast... and some items it is not clear if they are magic or not).

    the question is... what do you have against darley being able to cast cantrips? you yourself think it wouldn't alter her "power" at all... so whats wrong with her doing it like every non crippled sorcerer can?

    plus, part of co8's goal is to make things conform to PnP better.
     
  12. Ranth

    Ranth Established Member

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    You dont need detect magic to tell you which items are magical as far as I know. At least, you dont need to cast it. The game will tell you if they are magical from the get go. When I solo'd the game with a cleric I always knew which items were magical...
     
  13. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    I haven't done anything so sensible as check this for Darley, but there is a physical limit to how many spells an NPC can be given: there's only so many boxes in Protos.tab to put spells in. If Darley is missing some, she should get them, if this is possible. But she should get them in accord with the original module, and if that still leaves people unsatisfied, its part of the game, alas. I've never found the slightest use for Darley myself, but I find all the Node NPCs come way too late in the game for me to want them.
     
  14. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    I have nothing against, I'm just saying it's not a big deal. If she's supposed and can get them, it's be nice for someone to mod that it, but if not I'm not gonna feel sad about it.

    As Ranth said, it's always obvious what's magical, so detect magic is useless.

    I find the idea of having an outside NPC intriguing. I picked her up on one playthrough when Senshok quit on me so I was left without a spellcaster in the party, she was actually useful then.

    As is I agree, the Node NPCs are there for story more than for any actual use. Although with extra after-game content, I think they will see more use in the future.
     
  15. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    the game does NOT do it for ALL items... many items will have a unique name such as "wellington's bow" or "larath's staff"...
    only generic items are described as "magic sword" or "magic bow"...
    then there are the holy items which are described as "radiant"...

    for a player who doesn't already KNOW exactly which items are and aren't magical its very useful to cast.
    I used to cast it and scan over items... now I can just tell (plus i recognize the specific items). but it doesn't mean the spell is useless.

    she is missing 9 cantrips, 2 level 1 spells, and 2 level 2 spells.
    how could she have so few spells known though? any wizard should have way more than that.. and she is perfectly capable of gaining spells (she gains 4 spells at level 11, as a sorcerer should)
     
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