Crossbow Poll

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by Shiningted, Apr 6, 2006.

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Should we add Drow crossbows and Repeating crossbows, and how?

  1. Drow crossbows need feat, repeaters don't

    10 vote(s)
    25.6%

  2. Repeaters need feat, Drow crossbows don't

    1 vote(s)
    2.6%

  3. Both need feats, as per the rules

    24 vote(s)
    61.5%

  4. Neither need feats but still work as they should

    4 vote(s)
    10.3%

  5. Just add Drow crossbows as normal crossbows

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  6. Leave things as they are

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    Oh yah!..go-go-SpeedRacer-GO!..Trixie worries and chim-chim goes nuts in the pits..

    download theme song here <--- click there
    * Right-click and select save as to save a copy to your hard drive.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2006
    krunch, Apr 6, 2006
    #16
  2. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

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    There's two advantages. One, even with Rapid Reload, a PC is going to provoke an AOO for reloading the crossbow. Which means if he's threatened and facing someone with Combat Relfexes, he'll get smacked twice. Once for reloading his crossbow, and once for using a missle weapon in melee.

    Second, rapid reload only allows someone to reload a heavy crossbow as a move action, whereas a heavy repeater allows the user to make a full attack action.
     
    Kalshane, Apr 6, 2006
    #17
  3. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    My 3rd ed Underdark manual say's that Drow get the Exotic weapon proficiency (hand Xbow) for free, I don't believe PC's should get anything for free in ToEE, as the object of the game when it was created by Toika, was to be faithful to the rules (if the rules were a moot point - we'd be modding NWN instead!).
     
    Allyx, Apr 6, 2006
    #18
  4. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    7:10 ... com'n people - vote!..either way, your vote counts
     
    krunch, Apr 6, 2006
    #19
  5. Shiningted

    Shiningted The Thunder of Justice Administrator

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    Ummm the poll has a couple days left in it Krunch (if I'm not mistaken). I should have set it for 30 seconds and just voted myself ;)

    Anyways, barring a late charge I think the 'by the rules' folks have it :) Fair enough, but a feat amendment WILL have to wait for Brad. I will do some testing to see how the repeater as it is provokes AoOs (and thanks for the answer Kalshane).

    Any feedback on me adding non-feat ones as magical weapons?

    O and Ug (u still here?!??!) I guess that IS what the shopmap is for, to add exotic weapons at the start, so yeah, we can do that when the time comes. :)

    No Drow stuff though - u want it, u dang well earn it! :goth:
    Does this work in game atm? Does that mean Rapid Shot works with a Crossbow?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2006
    Shiningted, Apr 7, 2006
    #20
  6. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

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    I said drow xb yip, rxb nope, but then thats just cos pretty much all the bow feats in DnD anoy me. personally I think that if you can use a longbow then you could use a shortbow, and if you could use a shortbow then you could use a longbow if you had the strength to pull back the string (I would break it down into bows and composite bows), same goes for xbows (maybe have a penalty for the first 3 mins while you look at the loading mechanism). when it come to hand xbws tho they're used and loaded in a different way so that would require different training especially if two are used at once.
     
    Cujo, Apr 7, 2006
    #21
  7. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Yeah...DO IT, MAN!
    :rock:
    And you could call them Crossbows of Quickness or Crossbows of Haste. These would be slower than true Speed as I understand it. Honestly, I think Quickness fits better than Haste, as Haste also implies more, if you take my meaning. But, then again, I'm all about options...

    And stop being mean to the potential play testers...:rant:

    :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2006
    Lord_Spike, Apr 7, 2006
    #22
  8. Shiningted

    Shiningted The Thunder of Justice Administrator

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    Ok, that sounds a go, a magical crossbow that is auto-cocking to save Rapid Reload in the manner that a Keen weapon saves Improved Critical. Being auto-cocking, I was going to call it the Cockmaster but I will consider Crossbow of Quickness as well ;) I'll throw in a Crossbow of Distance while I'm at it. All this, of course, assumes I can wangle a workaround for the non-proficiency issue!

    Proper feats and repeaters will have to await Brad. I have yet to test the AoO issue, but if that works I will be the first to say yes, they deserve their own feat.
     
    Shiningted, Apr 7, 2006
    #23
  9. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Cockmaster...that's a name that is far too likely to cause undue attention from certain Pirate-Dentists.

    :love:
     
    Lord_Spike, Apr 7, 2006
    #24
  10. Shiningted

    Shiningted The Thunder of Justice Administrator

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    Hmmm... and as a Ranger he automatically gets Rapid Shot...

    Wait, what did I just say??? :eek:mg:

    Ok, I tested the Repeater for AoOs, and alas, it does attract them both when firing and if u force-reload (not that there is any reason to force-reload, reloading - including force-reloading - is most definitely a free action in game).

    I should re-poll to see if people still want feats even though the feat can't b implemented ;) Nah, if Brad can do the AoOs for potions, he can reverse it here and do that at the same time (assuming he agrees of course!) But as far as the poll goes, I'm afraid the mob has spoken.

    O and fyi, adding exotic weapon proficiency (repeating crossbow) to a character (zaxis in this case) does nothing, while adding feat exotic weapon proficiency (repeating crossbow) crashes the game.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2006
    Shiningted, Apr 7, 2006
    #25
  11. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

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    No idea on both counts. Though by the rules Rapid Shot should work.

    Well, this makes sense. I would imagine a force-reload to be like putting in a new "clip" which should provoke an AOO.
     
    Kalshane, Apr 7, 2006
    #26
  12. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    vote count is 9 (one needs a feat) : 15 (both have feats)
     
    krunch, Apr 7, 2006
    #27
  13. darmagon

    darmagon stumbler in the dark

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    I have to agree with ted on this (mostly) and here is my reasoning. First, having to spend a feat on repeating crossbows (as Ted says) has exactly the same results as having to spend a feat for rapid reload for a regular crossbow (ie reloading is a free action.) But a repeating crossbow costs considerably more than a regurlar crossbow. I think the situation is akin to the difference between a masterwork weapon and a regular weapon. You don't have to spend a feat to gain the +1 benefit that you get from a masterwork weapon so why should you have to spend a feat to gain the benefit from a repeating weapon? I think that the gaem designers missed the boat here and it is up to us to set things right. What it comes down to is, do I spend an extra 200-300 gp and a feat and get a repeating crossbow or just spend a feat and get the same result with a regular crossbow? If this is about game balance that formula is not balanced at all.

    As far as the drow (ie. one-hand ) crossbow is concerned, yeah you should have to spend a feat on that. One: it is a true innovation (just think, all we know about are rifles and suddenly someone gives you a pistol. From personal experience, I know that it was much easier to learn to use a rifle properly than it was to learn to use a pistol.(ie. aiming is much more simple with a rifle)) Two: I beleive that you have the potential to use one in each hand (maybe not without penalties?) Plus you can have a crossbow in one hand and a melee weapon in the other and a hand held crossbow is not that much more expensive than a regular one (albeit it does less damage.)

    Final comment, yes it should require something extra to learn to use a repeating crossbow but I don't think it should require a full feats worth. Maybe one or two skill points would be sufficient. Unfortunately, the game is not quite flexible enough to accomodate this....

    Darmagon
     
    darmagon, Apr 7, 2006
    #28
  14. Drew

    Drew Kind of a prick

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    In all seriousness, if you are going to require a feat for repeating crossbows you just shouldn't add the weapon at all. It would be a waste of time and effort. This is probably going to offend the rules lawyers, too, but what about giving an intelligence requirement to use the weapon? Roy Greenhilt from the Order of the Stick would have no problem using it, but Thog from the Linear Guild.......not gonna happen.
     
    Drew, Apr 9, 2006
    #29
  15. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    I dunno...I can think of a reason or two for Thog to know how to use one & for Roy to be unable. But once trained properly, it's a different story.
     
    Lord_Spike, Apr 9, 2006
    #30
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