critical threat ranges not working

Took the Keen Edge spell with my Sorc 10 and casted it on a Warhammer +2 which now sports a crit of 18-20/X3 instead of 20/X3. Next I cast Keen Edge on a Longsword +1 which now sports a crit range of 17-20/X2.
So Keen Edge does add +2 in the description.

I rest for more than a day and find that the new crit values are still the same. I proceed with testing the improved warhammer on another character. A roll of 18 yields a hit but there is no 2nd roll to confirm the crit.
Seems like even if the description is altered, the actual crit range remains the same.

Next I permanently craft the Keen property upon a Flaming Longsword +1. Again the crit range description says 17-20/X2. And again a roll of 18 yields a hit but no 2nd roll to confirm the crit.

Conclusion: Keen doesn't seem to alter crit range.

There must be something with that Great Cleaver which makes it different. Could we retest altering the crit range again for other weapons? I really can't see what else might be wrong.

Below is the code for Great Cleaver (item number 4213):

4213 obj_t_weapon 4213 size_medium mat_metal 1
10155 10 620 388 OIF_WEAR_WEAPON_PRIMARY OIF_WEAR_WEAPON_SECONDARY 5 3 D20DT_SLASHING 1d10 handaxe 19-20 Weapon Masterwork Weapon Enhancement Bonus 1 0 Weapon Keen

 

I would but I can't edit the values for some reason. Shin edited and tested one or two with no luck. *Maybe*, for some reason, we need to edit all expanded range weapons to read 18/19-20 and then save the file. But that's a lot of weapons and I think it's a blind alley.

I'm starting to get the feeling that editing the protos.tab is only going to effect the description. Whether this applies only to crit. ranges or not, I'm not sure. Just a hunch, zhuge, but try changing the damage value on one of your weapons (from 1d8 to 2d6 or something) and see what happens.

There's probably another file that governs the actual effects. I looked in all of the .dat files I could using Zane's (?) editor/viewer, but found nothing that looked promising. (I couldn't open all of them, I think something f-ed up when I downloaded the .net framework--I keep getting error messages)

I don't know, maybe because the cleaver is a "joke" weapon and doesn't really follow standard rules (dmg is 1-10 (should be 1-6), and the graphic is different from the normal handaxe) they did something different when implementing it that they didn't do with the standard weapons. In the protos, the only difference I see is in what I said already. If we can find another file that governs effects we might be able to get somewhere.

 

I just altered the holy longsword from meleny to be a keen long sword. After several minutes of testing (will do more later) I found:

I got an extraordinary amount of 20's. Noticeably different than normal. Very odd, was critting like mad. Maybe just a streak but got one every battle.

I was able to score crits on 19 and 20 with this modified longsword. I was NOT able to get crits on 20's previously even though that is the normal threat range of a longsword.

I did not roll any 17's or 18's, have to test some more. The altered threat range appears to be 17-20, but again, didnt roll any 17 or 18's in about 10 min of sleeping and fighting in Emridy meadows.

 

you meant 19 right?

Well now we're getting somewhere, apparently giving a weapon a keen edge in the protos does double its range. In this case from 20 to 19-20 (even though it should be 19-20 already). I'm willing to bet that you don't get crit checks on 17 or 18. Did you make any alterations to the crit range field itself, change it from 19 to 19-20?


anyone have a character with the improved critical feat? I was told on the atari board that it does nothing, but I'd like to hear from a more reliable source. (think this guy was assuming that since the ranges don't work right, then anything and everything related to them is broken.)

 

Allright, I edited all normal shortswords as having keen edge. Then tested at the moathouse against the frogs/bandits.

Results:

description says 17-20.

19 and 20 result in critical hit checks.

17 and 18 do not.

I will test with rapiers or falchions (18-20 ranges) later, but I don't expect different results (besides the description reading 15-20). For some reason editing the critical range field has no in-game effect other than description.

So a short term workaround would be to make all weapons that would normally have an expanded range keen edged. 18-20 range weapons are still screwed out of that extra five percent, and you obviously can't use the keen edge enchantment, but IMO it's better than what we have now. I'll probably do this in my protos at some point, but I don't feel like typing "Weapon Keen" 30-40 times at the moment If anybody wants a copy of the protos.tab when I'm done let me know and I'll post a link, should be done typing/testing by tomorrow.

btw, I edited all the ranges to read 18/19-20 and even added 20 to fields that had nothing, just to see if cleaning it all up would help. Nothing changed, I tested with a saved game and a new game, no luck.

 

Thanks for the comprehensive testing.

So Great Cleaver critting on 19 is due to Weapon Keen in protos.tab but neither casting Keen Edge on a weapon or crafting Keen Edge on a weapon will give you any added range even though the description changes.

I suppose the function that calls upon the crit subroutine would be hardcoded? And I suppose that this function is not reading the crit field properly? I'm really unsure we can proceed any further if the crit range field is non functional apart from changing the description. Perhaps it is time to pass the ball to Troika.

 

I have created a custom longsword, changed the crit threat range
from 19 to 19-20, and added "Weapon Keen" as an attribute in
to the entry in protos.tab.

I went into the watch tower (near the Temple) and tested on the
bandits, witches, etc in there. I was able to roll confirmed crits on
rolls of 18, 19, 20 - but no 17.

With keen, the threat range should be 17-20 but I'm not getting
crits on 17. I've tried with changing the crit threat range to
16-20 with keen, so the new range should be 14-20, but still no
crits beyond 18,19,20. Hmmm ....

 

My theory is the "keen" attribute works fine, it doubles the critical range but the critical range values for all weapons is 20...

Beside Proto.tab which describes the objects in the game, there must be another database containing details for TYPES of weapons, like which roll would be critical threat, but it's somehow broken, I think.

Sidenote, editing the damage roll from 1d8 to 2d6 for example, works like charm.

 

edit: meant to quote your entire first paragraph, Elithea.

Did you create the longsword from scratch on a new line in the protos.tab? If so, how did you get it into your character's inventory?

Could you remove the keen attribute and retest that weapon? I'm wondering if 19 will hit then (as it should). I'd also be really interested to see what would happen if you made that sword masterwork then tried to craft it to keen edge in-game.

It's possible that only the original prototypes are broken and that replacing them with custom ones is the way to go. I'll try to do this with one weapon type in a bit...there's some columns that I'm still in the dark about though, so if it doesn't work it only proves that I'm not completely sure what I'm doing.

oh, and making all expanded-range weapons keen edged in the protos will result in 19-20 critical checks for all of those weapons in the game. It's not that hard to implement this, I used field three (the same as the great cleaver--which by the way is the only weapon with a keen edge in the original protos...). You can copy/paste "Weapon Keen" just hit enter to lock it in after you paste, took me about 5 min. Don't forget to back up the original, the troika fix (if they fix this) will prob. overwrite it, but you never know.

Don't forget when testing that undead are immune to criticals: ("jesus christ what the hell did I do now?!? oh wait, it's a skeleton....")

Welcome, same to you.

 

I copied the entry for the flame tongue greatsword - dropped it
on a new line, changed the id, changed the sword type to
longsword, changed the damage dice and bonuses, the threat
range, etc.

My intentions were to create an uber weapon to overcome the
penalties of dual wielding longswords.

I then added my new item into the starting inventories entry for
fighters - started a new game and hey presto.

My original threat range change without weapon keen, made no
diff - only crit threats on a roll of 20. I tried a threat range of
16-20 and even 10-20 but only crits on 20. When I added weapon
keen, and changed the threat range entry to read 19-20 as
opposed to my original changes of just 10, 16, or whatever, the
crits changed to 18, 19, and 20.

I've tried changing the threat range to read 16-20 with keen,
but no joy beyond 18, like I said in my previous post.

So go figure ... .

 

I want to bump this thread to the first page so I can refer to it easier.

Also, to answer my own question, apparently taking the improved critical feat does nothing at all. At least not with a greatsword. (If someone could test with a 20 weapon like the greataxe or glaive, it'd be great). I tested this before and after adding the keen modifications. The effective range stayed at 20 before and 19-20 after. I'm thinking about a workaround for this too...

 

Could someone clarify this for me.

In D&D 3e threat range (eg 19-20) means you have a chance of a critical. It does not guarantee it. If you roll a 19-20 then you need to make another roll which must hit the creature. If you hit the creature with the second roll then you score a critical.

For example,

Bob the 1st level fighter is attacking a rogue ,who tried to pick-pocket him, with his shiney new long sword (1d8/19-20). The rogue has an AC of 14 (leather & dex) and Bob has a to hit of +3 (Level and strength). Bob rolls a 19 (woohoo! possibly a critical!). His next roll is a 4 +3 to hit = 7 which would not hit. Hence, you do normal damage and do not score a critical.

If Bob would have rolled an 11 or better he would have scored a critical.

Is this the way ToEE handles it or am I just dreaming?

If I am dreaming could someone please wake me up...

 

yep exactly. You see the second roll as a 'confirmation roll' under the first.