Co8 patch

there are only a couple of "cheat" weapons, one is the gun the other is the Sword of Cahoem. Altho the Sword of Cahoem is a powerful weapon its powers balance out :evil_laug . All of the other new weapons that either me or allyx add are just nomal weapons (not even masterwork some of them) or as close to the gods favored weapons as they could be. Some of the standard weapons are in the game while all the uber weapons need to be consoled in.

 

This is not directed personally at you Salk, but if I hear someone ask "Can I get the bug fixes without the added content?" one more time, I am going to go balistic.

The new content is so seemlessly integrated that I doubt even someone who has played the game a couple times before would notice it was new. They would just think they missed it the previous times through. The only exception to this (Desperate Housewives), was made an optional part of the Co8 4.0.0 install.

The line between "bug fix" and "new content" is a subjective one as well.

 

Hello Cerulean the Blue,

thanks for taking part of the subject. I am sorry that the "can I get the bug fixes without the added content" causes you such distress. I do mean it. But perhaps it might be reasonable to wonder why several users ask the same question.

Of course this doesn't mean at all that modders must adapt their creations to appease the whines of some people. I have always respected creativity in a modding community because it is often the flame that keeps the modding scene alive.

Just the bugfixing would pretty soon become a boring postproduction assignment.

You say that the line between "bug fix" and "new content" is a subjective one as well...I have thought much about this interpretation of yours and I must say you're at least partly right. Sometimes there is something in the game that makes you think (I don't speak of ToEE only here) that the authors perhaps had the intention to do something (a missing quest or items, for instance) but then for some reason they could not do it (usually lack of time). Looking at the files it's often easy to find some hints to this.

In that case, I do believe that adding new content by restoring the "broken" quests is the best attempt to preserve the game's original spirit. Everything else though that comes anew from a modder's mind can hardly be considered close to "bugfixing".

This is at least my humble opinion, Cerluean. This doesn't at all mean that the added new content is always *bad* for a game. Absolutely. It's just a matter of tastes and, to some extent, even respect for what the original authors of a game intended.

Do I believe that added new content can improve a game ? Absolutely yes! Do I believe that often (not always) added new content shifts game balance and break somewhat the game spirit ? Absolutely yes! Do I believe that fixing bugs, restoring "unfinished business" is the only safe way to only do good to a game ? Absolutely yes!

I hope I didn't offend anybody here as it's never been my intention. I thank you all again for your interest in this topic!

 

I think the point is that most of the new content is hiding in plain sight, if you don't want to use katanas just don't use them (yes Toshi added them) or the Robes of the Archmagi that Allyx added or the different coloured robes I added, the Karma that HeavyDan added or all of darmagons new spells (just don't chose any of them). The simple solution is to just not use these items, or if its dialogue stuff just don't say the things that will triger new things and if you can't tell whats new and whats not in those cases then we've done a good job.

 

you know, ToEE was originally unplayable for me without the Co8 mod (i believe joined this forum right before the release of liv 1.5)... and at first i didn't realise the added content (except the masterwork dialogue menu with brother smyth) wasn't part of the original game. And I'm usually extremely critical of these things. Especially Burne's puzzle is so well integrated and written into the game that you really won't be able to tell that it isn't part of the original game unless someone points it out to you.

 

Hi all!

Thanks again for giving more of your insight. Much appreciated. Allyx has also been so nice to speak with me privately jsut today before he rushed to the kitchen looking for his invaluable apron!

I do intend to try and install new content for ToEE that the Co8 community has brought in with some exceptions that mostly come from my scepticism in introducing a kind of humour or other situations that would just clash with the game's spirit.

I am looking forward to your new release and I wish you all guys the best for its development of course! I consider this subject more or less concluded now since I got all the informations I needed. In case, I might write something more if some questions should cross my mind.

Thanks you all again!

 

Oh trust me, I have wondered. And I have come up with an answer. The fact is that this fan community is pretty much the only support ToEE has, and has done far more than Troika or Atari ever did to fix this game. This has been the state of things for so long now that people have forgotten that we are just a bunch of people who like this game so much that we have spent our free time, without any compensation, to make this game playable and, in my oppinion, better. People have forgotten that we have jobs, families, and lives that do not involve ToEE, and that we do not get paid for this, nor do we actually have any obligation or responsibility to proivide support for this game. We do it because we like the game, and we like to make it better.

Someone here on the forum once asked me who we made these mods for. My response was that we make them for the people who like them. I stand by that. If you don't like what we have made, don't use it. If you like it, we welcome you to use it and enjoy. But to ask us to spend countless hours to rework things we have spent so many hours of our personal time to create, just to conform to someones "tastes", is both a selfish and unfair request. And yet, people do, and often times get rather bitchy about it. And then for some unfathomable reason, we take the time try and convince these people as to how our patch does not unbalance the game and is in the spirit of the game. Why we do that is what really makes me wonder.

Wow! That was quite the rant, wasn't it. I appologize to you, Salk. This really is not aimed at you. You have been polite and respectful, and have shown again and again that you understand that we are just rabid fans of the game, and not tech support. And you did not ask us to rework anything. You are not one of the "people" I was refering to. I just felt I needed to reply, if at least to explain my previous statement.

Now I have a question for you. I have just completed I project that makes it possible to get familiars out of the characters inventory and into the game. It complies as much as possilbe within the limitations of the game to 3.5 ed. rules. There is no indication whatsoever that the original game designers ever intended this to be possible, yet their oft stated intention in making this game was to make a computer game that was true to the D&D rules (which allow for your familiar to be out of your backpack). How would you catagorize this mod?

 

Dear Cerulean The Blue,

your point is well taken. Please do not feel any discomfort by saying bluntly how you feel about unpolite and disrespectful requests coming from some users that happen to visit this nice board. I believe you have all reasons (and not only you but every member that partecipates to the Co8 patch) for getting pissed off by it.

I would probably be much more pissed off than you are just even reading my own messages, was I on the other side of the fence.

Now about your question. It's really a good one and I immediately tell you what I would do...I would absolutely install your component, Cerulean and I tell you why.

It's a matter of priority here. I didn't play the game so I didn't even know that the familiar should have to stay in the backpack (???) but what would the meaning of a familiar that can't do anything but stay in the inventory be ?

In this case, your mod overrides the original programmers' intention, at least for me.

I come with another situation: the original programmers want to make a difficult encounter and what do they do to make it so ? The worst possible thing. They give a creature wrong stats (HPs, abilities, ecc. ecc.) to make it several times stronger than it should actually be according to P&P.

The way to go is AI refinements and/or new equipment that raises the challenge bar. So if a private user does that, it obviously changes something of the original game but it's also obvious that it's making something way better and more realistic.

That's why I am so interested in the AI improvements that Co8 brings in...

I am looking forward to your familiar mod, hoping it will be included in the next version of the patch!

Thanks for sharing this with me!

 

Thank you for being so understanding. I am sorry it was your thread I had to vent all that in. And I totally agree with you that AI improvements are a much better way to make an encounter more challenging than bending (or breaking) the rules.

I hope the familiar mod makes it into the next release too, but I can't really take credit for it. It is really Allyx's mod, he just brought me in to work on the scripting, and then I had to get some help from darmagon with that. When the protos thing gets done, it will be Allyx that releases it.