Co8 8.1.0 bugs

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by sirchet, Aug 15, 2014.

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  1. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Yeah, PnP would be different.
    I was tihnking the same thing. But
    This. It reminds me of Charm, something very subtle in PnP games that was applied with a sledgehammer because there is very little other way to do it.
     
  2. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

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    The save for charm is 11 + modifiers, which typically means at least ~DC14 from a 1st level character. Most enemies (bugbears, ogre's etc.) don't have very good will save modifiers to begin with.

    For ToEE's implementation, IMHO both charm person and charm monster really need a DC handicap of at least 5. Even with that, there would still be ~50% chance to land the charm (>50% with charm monster). If you really wanted a charming campaign, there are enchantment feats to help, not to mention helper spells like doom and so on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  3. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

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    I bet that's not implemented. :)
     
  4. anatoliy

    anatoliy Established Member

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    Rules Compendium, Charm and Compulsion, p 28
    "A charmed creature fights former allies only if those allies threaten the charming creature. Even then, the charmed creature uses the least lethal means as long as such tactics show any possibility of success, just as the charmed creature would do in a fight between two actual friends."

    Perfect solution! Let's make charmed creature make only unlethal damage, same for if caster is charmed. that could be changed only in T+. @Sitra Achara, what do you think?

    Unfortunately Dominate Person simply does "Charmed" condition. Should be reworked, I guess.

    Edit: Or spell Charmed could add "nonlethal" condition, and dominate would not.
     
  5. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

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    That sounds like something that's relatively easy to accomplish, but it seems like certain AI fixes would be better if possible.

    For instance, I've seen normal enemies prefer to attack a charmed enemy over the party. You could make them also deal nonlethal damage in that case, but it'd be better if they just didn't do that, since it doesn't make sense in the first place. I guess Temple+ fixed charmed enemies attacking their own allies in some cases (although what counts as an ally is kind of fragile), but not the reverse?

    I have no experience with how difficult it is to fix this sort of AI issue, though.
     
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  6. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    I think I've mentioned this before but I want to export ConsoderTarget to python
     
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  7. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

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    I probably could start trying to duplicate the logic in Python, simmilar to the 'to hit' stuff.
     
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  8. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    That'd be great!
     
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  9. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Checking for combat active, then adding +5 to DC, should be straightforward. It will impair the value of Charm Person as a low level spell though.
     
  10. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

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    Add the charm save penalty as a stricter rules enforcement option.
     
  11. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

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    It will land less in the strictest sense...but it will still land a lot! 50% instead of 75%.

    A lvl 1 human wizard can take focus and GF enchantment at level 1. Say this wizard starts with 18 int.

    Even with +5 penalty, the DC on charm will be 12. At first level. As charm stands now, this build means anything rarely makes the save in the early game, even if they have the Iron Will feat :rolleyes: and/or other class will save bonuses.

    Hobgoblins and some other low level monsters have will penalties, as well.

    Further, scrolls use the stats of the caster for DCs, so you can pass charm scrolls around and spam it for high chances of enslaving huge groups.

    Higher levels can cast an appropriate stat increase spell (Fox's cunning in this case) or buy/craft a +stat item. Add to that the +2/stat every 8 levels. The party can use doom(-2), prayer(-1), bestow curse (-4), Mind Fog (-10) etc. Tbh, there is no current incentive to ever use these because you are better off trying the same spell 2x with 75% chance than doing all that work.

    Consider that there is also little incentive to use Tasha's laughter unless avoiding charm spells. It's better to have a strong distraction in the battle than to simply remove one thing from the fight at essentially the same DC (1st bard, 2nd wizard). I think ToEE adds some specific creature type bonuses against Tasha for a different creature type in addition to +4 as per SRD. For example, a bard with 16 charisma sees a DC of 10 (14 - 4=10), and the troll gets another +2 racial bonus + 2 iron will -1 wisdom.

    And why summon a 1-2 round duration creature with a low level caster when you can easily have a stronger charmed for long duration?
    _____________________________________
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2021
  12. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

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    Also remember that charm can make for a great battle opener since there's no save penalty if used out of combat.

    Summons are still useful because sometimes you want a specific creature in a specific spot, or you've done like me and opposed Enchantment as a specialty Wizard.

    Note that caster DCs tend to be notably higher than enemy saves at level 1ish, but as levels and HD increase, unit saves tend to increase much faster than spell DCs. At level 1, it's quite possible to target a weak save so a foe only saves on a natural 16+. At level 10, it's generally much harder to do this.
     
  13. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

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    However, at that point you can use charm monster for an additional 3 DC. And there is always the Heighten Spell feat. Which means charm person can have +8 more DC, if you so desire to waste a 9th level slot.
     
  14. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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  15. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

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    Wow, I'm surprised. Is that in the original game, or was it added by people here at some point?
     
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