Co8 5.0.0 Beta - The Big 3; A poll

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by Kalshane, May 11, 2006.

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I think the encounter should be handled like this...

Poll closed May 24, 2006.

  1. They show up with moathouse brigands

    1 vote(s)
    3.2%

  2. They show up with moathouse brigands only after Lareth is dead

    10 vote(s)
    32.3%

  3. They show up with temple tower troops

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  4. They show up with temple tower troops only after Lareth is dead

    9 vote(s)
    29.0%

  5. They show up with Nulb pirates

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  6. They show up with Nulb pirates only after Lareth is dead

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  7. They show up on thier own

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  8. They show up on their own only after Lareth is dead

    4 vote(s)
    12.9%

  9. What the hell is this poll all about?

    7 vote(s)
    22.6%
Page 7 of 10
  1. maggit

    maggit Zombie RipTorn Wonka

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    That's what I mean. Sorry for being unclear on that one. I have some problems
    on my back right now and can't think clearly. Do we have to voice/have voice
    for everything?

    @S_D: Yes, you exactly got my point. I wrote here about this because I was
    sure there was some dialogue for that (haven't reached Turuko while translating
    maybe that's why). It would be yet another great addition to the game's plot.
     
    maggit, Mar 12, 2007
    #91
  2. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    My opinion on this is yes, at least inasmuch as the primary goal for doing this mod in particular was to create a transparent addition to the game that would ideally be indistinguishable from the original material. When a normally voiced NPC suddenly goes quiet even though he's got dialogue on-screen, it screams 'MOD!' to the player. I wanted to avoid that at all costs.

    As far as your guys' opinions on where T&K's loyalties should lie, remember that in ToEE each game is different. So we don't have to have T&K operating under identical motivations each time through. With any new game, as far as you know going in, they're just mercenaries for hire at the Welcome Wench.

    That said, I agree that we do need to ensure that they're not contradicting themselves through their words and/or behavior within the context of any single game. So they shouldn't, for example, join the party early on, get thrown out later, and then ambush the party at the Moathouse cave exit while talking like they're only peripherally aware of the party's identities (as they do in that encounter), or like they're unaware of any adventures they may have shared with the party up to the Lareth battle. (i.e., "I have been searching for you in a nearby moathouse." "You mean the same nearby moathouse where you helped us kill the gnolls?" Etc.) Likewise, they shouldn't lament Lareth's death or banishment (and the PCs shouldn't boast of it) if Lareth is standing right there with the party, obviously.

    All this is beyond my ability to fix though, as Blue was my evil partner in crime in the mod and did all the coding. I just did the dialogue and sketched out the concept . . . which was actually based originally on a plot by Lord_Spike that he had DMed in many a PnP campaign. So I can't even take credit for that, I although I can and should take the blame if it's not working.

    The difficulty in all this, I admit, stems from the fact that I wanted to have everything voiced. There are limits to what I could codge together from the existing audio files, so the mod was partially dictated and entirely limited by what I could get T&K (and Zert) to say. I'm afraid that I don't intend to deviate from that standard. One of the more rewarding things I've experienced here at Co8 was to hear players say things to the effect of "I don't remember that ambush being in the original game. How did I miss it?" :mrhappy:
     
    Gaear, Mar 12, 2007
    #92
  3. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    Fixing the Big 3 Ambush is one of the things on my "to do" list. It has been for quite a while now. I can easily fix it so that if Lareth is in the party the ambush does not happen.It's just one conditional in the code. Fixing it so the ambush doesn't happen if any of the Big 3 have ever been in the party will take a little more. I am wondering as well should it be if they have been in the party at all, or if they have been in the party when the party entered the Moathouse, or if the were in the party when Lareth was encountered?

    Anyway, when I get some free time I will fix it, or someone else can do it before then.
     
    Cerulean the Blue, Mar 13, 2007
    #93
  4. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    I honestly do't think it matters or not whos side K&T are on if facing lareth. On the one hand they seem to know a bit about lareth and might even go so far as to call each other "friends". On the other they don't suport lareths cause infact I think Turuko is using him, his real loyalty is to hextor, and if the party has kicked a bit of ass through the moat house/ game up to this point they might think it safer to side with the PCs if they want to live.
     
    Cujo, Mar 13, 2007
    #94
  5. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    A quick comment on the "friends" observation. This may be based on a degree of truth, but mostly through reputation. And also the axiom that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Lareth's first loyalty (love, actually) is given to his dark mistress, Lolth. He'd gladly send anyone to the abyss for her greater glory (except himself - for now, at least...he loves life, too). Lareth would definetly also use K & T to further his ends.

    Very J.R.R. Tolkien, if you ask me; the evil ones cheat themselves by seeking to cheat one another.
     
    Lord_Spike, Mar 13, 2007
    #95
  6. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    One thing I've noticed is that really Kobort is a pawn in all this, he seems to be very loyal to Turuko for some reason but his alignment is TN, he doesn't worship any diety and has a INT of 6 and WIS of 8.
     
    Cujo, Mar 13, 2007
    #96
  7. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    At the risk of starting another alignment row, I'd like to add that the same idea exists in the Chronicles of Dragonlance trilogy of novels (great story BTW for those that haven't read them), while the forces of good can ally themselves relatively easilly against a common foe, the forces of evil are, by thier very nature destined to backstab, scheme, plot and murder eachother in thier attempts to promote thier own selfish goals, so evil ultimately destroys itself.
     
    Allyx, Mar 13, 2007
    #97
  8. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    no it doesn't, it evolves at a faster rate leaving one super evil guy - survival of the fittest and all :p
     
    Cujo, Mar 13, 2007
    #98
  9. Shiningted

    Shiningted I changed this damn title, finally! Administrator

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    I just wanna second everything Gaear said about voicing the characters - his simple change of voicing Liv's "can I talk to you about your equipment?" mod has done wonders to make that feel like an integrated part of the game.
     
    Shiningted, Mar 13, 2007
    #99
  10. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    Yah, the voiceovers by Gaear and company have made the game better and more fun to play. Further, the new voiceovers have made the game more of a complete game by adding something new that was lacking in the original game. New mods should all have a goal to make the game more complete, either via game fixes or by new content, whether a mod is small or large and is simple or complex.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2007
    krunch, Mar 13, 2007
    #100
  11. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    I suppose the ambush could still occur if the big 3 had been in the party sans Moathouse adventuring, but otherwise we'd run the risk of it seeming strange that they'd be surprised at the party's presence there (if they'd already been there with them). In other words:

    Big 3 never in party = ambush
    Big 3 in party before Moathouse = ambush
    Big 3 in party any time during Moathouse adventuring = no ambush
    Lareth in party upon exit from Moathouse = no ambush

    Also, the ambush must only occur upon exiting the Moathouse after dealing with Lareth. Someone posted a while back that they got it upon exiting via the cave exit even though they hadn't done the Lareth bit yet.
     
    Gaear, Mar 14, 2007
    #101
  12. ShadowDragoon

    ShadowDragoon Advocate of Vengence

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    That happened to me, too. My party was spent and I thought I could make a quick exit back to Hommlet to rest up before Lareth. Luckily my Wizard still had a Sleep spell left. (Works wonders in that battle.) :p
     
    ShadowDragoon, Mar 14, 2007
    #102
  13. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

    The Lareth-in-the-party element of the Big 3 Ambush has been fixed. Check the CMF submissions thread for details.

    Thanks to Allyx for directions. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2007
    Gaear, Apr 15, 2007
    #103
  14. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    Re: ToEE FAQ and references

    :rant::rant::chairshot

    Now that I have out of game knowledge, I can just write off half a night's play if I go back and use nonplayer knowledge and don't read the diary before leaving. :chainsaw:

    Well, technically, I can read *almost all of it*, but why would my party want to read the whole thing.:chairshot:chairshot:chairshot

    ++(thearioch.UseString[142]); // where string[142]="And How exactly did that make it past testing again?"

    FYI, nothing personal, just letting my frustrations out. I am glad to see that the issue is being addressed (sort of). I'd advise against any sort of timer that isn't so long it obviates using a timer anyway. The party may spend a while (as did) I picking up all the loot and putting in the minichest, the party may rest first (and have several 8-hour blocks worth of healing, depending on how close the match was), hitting Lareth may not have been the "final" encounter (Party may have gone for Lareth before Bugbears and all of top of Moathouse was cleaned out, etc. In general, if you set a useful timer, it will be legitimately exceeded by someone.

    As an alternative, I'd remove the story state check, not set a timer, and test whether Moat House cleared quest is complete. It's a quest, and it's worth XP, so the party will likely be completing it asap. While there's no reason to infer the party telling Jaroo would be known by Zert, Turoko, or Kobort, it makes better game mechanical sense then attempting to pick a good timer value.

    Or, you could set other conditions on reading the Diary so that the party has to have already passed the point where/when the ambush would occur.

    --thearioch

    BTW, what triggers Lareth talking? My party walked in, pwned him with 4 or 5 actions and all he said was "My Face". Is it possible I overwhemed the game engine by killing Lareth faster than the programmers thought possible, or are there other triggers I may not have met?
     
    thearioch, Jul 9, 2008
    #104
  15. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Re: ToEE FAQ and references

    I don't think that would work. If you set the check to quest_completed, you could get the ambush at any time later in the game if you left the area initially via the front door after killing Lareth and then came back to the tunnel exit. The conditions have to expire at some point, they can't just be open-ended like that. I could see expanding the timeframe on the timer to several hours however to provide for party resting possibilities. It would have to be less than the time it would take to travel to Hommlet and back though, which I believe would mean eight hours or so. This is because it would be goofy to conceivably kill Lareth, go back to Hommlet, see Turuko and company at the inn, and then go back to the tunnel exit and have them tell you they've been looking for you.

    btw, I don't know that making the Moathouse a quest was ever properly implemented; I don't think you can get anyone to sign off on it as of yet.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2008
    Gaear, Jul 9, 2008
    #105
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