Co8 5.0.0 Beta - The Big 3; A poll

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by Kalshane, May 11, 2006.

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I think the encounter should be handled like this...

Poll closed May 24, 2006.

  1. They show up with moathouse brigands

    1 vote(s)
    3.2%

  2. They show up with moathouse brigands only after Lareth is dead

    10 vote(s)
    32.3%

  3. They show up with temple tower troops

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  4. They show up with temple tower troops only after Lareth is dead

    9 vote(s)
    29.0%

  5. They show up with Nulb pirates

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  6. They show up with Nulb pirates only after Lareth is dead

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  7. They show up on thier own

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  8. They show up on their own only after Lareth is dead

    4 vote(s)
    12.9%

  9. What the hell is this poll all about?

    7 vote(s)
    22.6%
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  1. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Re: Co8 5.0.0 beta 1 thread

    I think I agree with this. The question is, will Zert, Turuko, and Kobort with a handful of bandits be any kind of challenge for a 3rd level party? Maybe we could throw another raging bandit leader in there like the one from the Moathouse main floor by the secret stairs.

    :confused: Uhhh, let me try to explain the situation by way of examining the dialogue, which as Ted mentioned is somewhat inflexible. Because of this, the dialogue sort of dictated the plot of the situation rather than the other way around. Goofy way to do things, I know, but my motivation behind it was achieving that 'mod transparency' that Kalshane mentioned earlier.

    OK, the party exits the Moathouse secret tunnel and Kobort orders them to halt. This means only that the ambush crew was there at that moment. The party responds, and Turuko and Zert inquire as to what the party is doing there. In other words, they don't specifically know what the party is doing there already, but they obviously are concerned over it. Turuko further explains that they have been looking for the party, Krunch, and orders them to leave the area. This would indicate that they have either been recruited to do this job by someone, or that they are pursuing an agenda of their own. Either way, they are unhappy with the idea that the party is fooling around here. The party gets cute. Turuko replies to this cuteness by telling them what he thinks of them in no uncertain terms, but when the party reaches for their weapons, Zert calls a temporary stay in hopes of avoiding combat and sending the party on its way. At this point it seems quite clear that Zert and Turuko don't know what has happened inside the Moathouse, as if they did they wouldn't offer to let the party go. Turuko again orders them away, but when it is revealed that the party has already killed Lareth and cleared the Moathouse, everything changes. Turuko patronizingly continues along with the pretense that the Moathouse was populated only by "evil bandits," but it is clear that they intend to kill the party now. A few more zingers are exchanged, and the battle ensues.

    So based on this, we know only that:

    a. for some reason Zert, Turuko, and Co. are searching for the party in the area of the Moathouse, likely having heard of their meddling and fearing that they may cause too much trouble or learn too much. If not Zert and Turuko, then whoever hired them.

    b. Zert, Turuko, and Co. are not aware at the time of the encounter that the party has cleared the Moathouse.

    c. Zert, Turuko, and Co. are aware of the existence of Lareth, as the mention of his demise causes them to alter their plans and kill the party. They may not be of the same faction, but being as Lareth is a Temple Official (he is, isn't he?), I don't see why this would be a problem.

    This seems sufficiently open-ended to me, which actually serves our purposes in this case, as we can let the player ponder what might have actually been going on there and who has ties to who. A little intrigue is a good thing. (Plus, I myself can't really explain it anyway. :blush: )

    I'm more than willing to explore the available dialogue for more options specific to any ideas you might have, but I can tell you in advance that there aren't a lot of options there. All your input is welcome nonetheless.

    Lastly, I'm pleased that everyone's so into this. :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2006
    Gaear, May 13, 2006
    #16
  2. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    Re: Co8 5.0.0 beta 1 thread

    Okay, I got the game fixed so it works - that's a good thing. *laugh* And, I have some updated information to provide. However, before saying anything, I have to add the newest updates, go back and visit before the encounter with Lareth and the secret Moathouse exit and finale battle.

    [EDIT] *shakes head* (This is my last voice on this.) I would have preferred to see the three amigos and their posse be the same three evil inn guests plus one Guards Seargent and three Guards Footman [no Guards Crossbowman, no Guards Lieutenants, no other Guards, and absolutley no pirates].
    * In this scenario, the three evil inn guests were recruited by Lareth's faction and were tasked by Lareth to find and, either, dissuade or kill the party who is attempting to clear the Moathouse as Lareth is the proprietor and secret puppetmaster of the Moathouse. The three amigos along with the assistance of his Guards troops would help accomplish the task while producing an image to help keep Lareth's involvement a hidden truth, yet remain subversive.
    Note: The dialogue of the three amigos ambush would be an attempt to determine how much the party clearing the moathouse knows and how much damage the do-gooder party has done [acting like they do not know anything themselves] while deep inside wanting and preferring to find any reason to kill the do-gooders.

    Otherwise, I'll live with the new ambush. Someone really needs to fix or change the factions [or something] just for the ambush encounter with the three amigos and their merry band of pirates. Whoever is in the ambush group should not attack each other as soon as the fight starts. They should be able to keep their wits about them long enough to fight the enemy as one and argue amongst themselves after the fight is done. (I have experienced this several times.)
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2006
    krunch, May 14, 2006
    #17
  3. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

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    Re: Co8 5.0.0 beta 1 thread

    Crap. I knew I forgot something. Battle is probably starting before the dialog is over too. I'll get right on it.

    I chose pirates because at least they are first level Rangers, rather than the first level Rogues like the Moathouse Bandits.

    Yeah Krunch, for once I am with you. I liked the harder battle. But everyone else is right about it too. It doesn't make sense to say that 3 2nd level NPCs recruited and are leading a bunch or 3rd level, well armed and armored soldiers. The fact that the footmen almost always survived longer than the Big 3 says it all.
     
    Cerulean the Blue, May 14, 2006
    #18
  4. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

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    Re: Co8 5.0.0 beta 1 thread

    My issue with the battle was it was too tough if it automatically triggered the first time you left the Moathouse via the secret exit. Plus, the dialogue was at odds with it. If it only triggers when Lareth has been defeated, the original incarnation should be a tough, but managable fight. Though the group of 2nd levels leading a horde of 3rd levels does make little sense.

    Why are rangers better than rogues in this instance?
     
    Kalshane, May 14, 2006
    #19
  5. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Re: Co8 5.0.0 beta 1 thread

    Rangers don't flank you and get sneak attacks on each side.
     
    Shiningted, May 14, 2006
    #20
  6. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    Re: Co8 5.0.0 beta 1 thread

    *sings* Rangers, Rangers, Rangers ... keep them do-gooders die'n ... RawHide!,
    Hit 'em fast, Smack 'em hard, Beat 'em up ... kill 'em all, don't let 'em live, stop every last one ... RawHide!
     
    krunch, May 14, 2006
    #21
  7. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Re: Co8 5.0.0 beta 1 thread

    For the record, I think bandit rogues would be better here too. Combat considerations aside, bandits are the Moathouse area's preferred evil type guy, while pirates seem to run the show around Nulb. It would be easier to imagine that Turuko and Zert recruited some of the local bandits plaguing the area rather than them going up to Nulb to get pirates. Like I suggested before, how about a bandit leader to toughen them up a bit?

    @krunch - the existing dialogue shows no particular close relation between Lareth and the ambush crew, which suggests that other entities and/or motivations were involved. Furthermore, Lareth himself appears to have no particular knowledge of the ambush crew. So what you're suggesting is a little wacky. Lastly, it's clear from the dialogue that the ambush crew wants to send the party away, not that they secretly want to kill them under the pretense of sending them away. :confused:
     
    Gaear, May 14, 2006
    #22
  8. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Re: Co8 5.0.0 beta 1 thread

    Blue, I'm glad to see you've come to that realization. But WTF are pirates doing there? Rangers aren't better than rogues in this instance. So what if they flank? You wanted it to be tough; and it should be. For balance, reduce their number rather than change their class. It's easier to believe that Zert & Co. linked up with a group of bandits that were "away" while the party cleared the Moathouse rather than recruited a group of total strangers from Nulb, the location of which none of them even really know about.
     
    Lord_Spike, May 14, 2006
    #23
  9. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    The 5.0.0 Beta thread has been somewhat de-railed with discussion about the controversial "Big 3" encounter. So to stop all the whining and get that thread back on track, could we move the discussion here, and vote on how the encounter should be handled?
     
    Allyx, May 14, 2006
    #24
  10. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    I've Pm'd a thought about this to Cerulean the Blue as per his request in that thread. While I agree that some discussion is in order, I don't think there was any whining going on. This is a community; the goal ought to be about making improvements as opposed to mere changes. Why have a poll when that's simply going to drag things out longer & the decision will be left to a few key folks anyway? I see the problem as this: Everyone can't mod; and everyone who can hasn't necessarily been a DM; or even played PnP that much - if at all. That insight is what is lacking, IMO; and that's what I try to provide. Putting pirates at the moathouse makes as much sense as stuffing a Red Dragon in there. It takes away from the story rather than adds to it, and does not serve what I thought the intentions of this forum were in the first place.

    "First, do no harm..."
     
    Lord_Spike, May 14, 2006
    #25
  11. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    How about we do away with the poll but still bring all Big 3 Ambush discussion over here? That way it won't dominate the 5.0.0 beta thread.
     
    Gaear, May 15, 2006
    #26
  12. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

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    Re: Co8 5.0.0 beta 1 thread

    For the record, Rangers are better than rogues for this because they have more hit points and a better BAB. I could put a f***ing legion of Moathouse bandits there and the party would walk through them like wet paper. You don't have to go to Nulb to get pirates. You can run into them on the way to the Deklo Grove or the Moathouse.

    I've tried to be reasonable. I've tried to find a solution in the limited time I have had between doing real bug fixes. Okay. That's it. I'm pulling the Ambush (Sorry Gaear, I know you put a lot of work into it). You high and might non-modder types are full of suggestions, but not a single f***ing one of you wants to lift a single f***ing finger to do anything about it. Time for you to start doing some of the work. Spikes PMed suggestions would mean rewriting the whole thing, dialog included. I'm not about to attempt that until there is a consensus. There is another thread for this now. You all go there and hash it out, and if you come to a decision, I will implement it. Until then, I don't want to here another f***ing word about it in this thread.

    Here is the script with the ambush removed. It will be incorporated into any future Cumulative Fixes updates.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 15, 2006
    Cerulean the Blue, May 15, 2006
    #27
  13. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Re: Co8 5.0.0 beta 1 thread

    Blue, You can be a real :jerkin: sometimes. You send PM's saying nice things, then show your true colors with a post like this. All the trouble that came from all that bullshit with Orion79, and you treat your "friends" like this.

    Shove this mod right up your ass; that is, if you can get it in there past your head:

    :no: :no: :no:
     
    Lord_Spike, May 15, 2006
    #28
  14. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

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    Re: Co8 5.0.0 beta 1 thread

    I'm sorry you're feeling sh!t on, CB. I don't think that's anyone's intention.

    From what I understand it, Gaear designed the ambush to trigger once Lareth was dead. The original encounter would be a more than viable challenge for a group that had defeated Lareth. Complaints about 3rd level guards aside, the original encounter works (both from an appropriate challenge and a plot/dialogue perspective) if it occurs after the party has defeated Lareth. Wasn't the original problem a missing flag? Would it be a lot of hassle to include the encounter as orginally included in Co8 5, with the "Lareth is dead" flag in place, and call it a day, rather than dumping Gaear's work?

    I'm sorry if my complaints about the ecounter have made you frustrated. I, and everyone else here I'm sure, appreciates all the work you and the rest of the mod team have put into this. Especially since my contributions would've been worthless without your work in re-doing the mobs.
     
    Kalshane, May 15, 2006
    #29
  15. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    IMO - Things that make sense to me is..

    1. If the ambush was soley derived by the three amigos on their own [no particular faction making a power move], I would expect the three amigos to show up with local help, i.e., local brigrands, fighters, whatever they can find in whatever combination [pirates are from other than from Nulb], where the situation should occur after the death of Lareth [too little too late].
    ********** Option # 1 is the current ambush status. **********

    2. If the ambush is Rannos and Gremag derived, the three amigos should show up with more Temple brigrands or show up with a lesser number of the Temple Guards, either situation of which should occur after the death of Lareth [too little too late].
    * If working for Rannos and Gremag, the three amigos would be told to act uninformed and lie at all cost in order to keep their identity in this matter a secret.

    3. If the ambush is Wat and Rentsch derived, the three amigos should show up with river pirates, i.e., means specifically pirates from Nulb, and the situation of which should occur after the death of Lareth [too little too late].
    * If working for Wat and Rentsch, the three amigos would be told to act uninformed and lie at all cost in order to keep their identity in this matter a secret.

    4. If the ambush is Lareth [Drow] derived, the three amigos should show up with more Moathouse brigrands or show up with a lesser number of the Moathouse Guards, either situation of which could occur before the death of Lareth.
    * If working for Lareth, the three amigos would be told to act uninformed and lie at all cost in order to keep his identity in this matter a secret.

    PS: This covers my views on the Three Amigos Bushwhack.
    ** I believe these are the logical possible options, not just the only options.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2006
    krunch, May 15, 2006
    #30
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