An open letter regarding release of a ToEE Editor

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Agetian, Apr 9, 2005.

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  1. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    Money talks.

    Atari and Troika are companies and are in the business to make Money. Be realistic. The modding community(Livonya), and others have put a tremendous amount of time and effort into this game. It didn't cost Atari or Troika a dime, but if word gets around this is a really good game now and sales increase, then they make out. I know there are songwriter/artists who wont release their work for any reason. I'm sure there are game writers who feel the same way. It's interesting.
     
    wizgeorge, Apr 10, 2005
    #16
  2. Agetian

    Agetian Attorney General Administrator

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    Be realistic, too. This happened once but it might not necessarily happen twice (for the next game). The modding community for ToEE is a really unique thing - there is a very small number of games that lived without support for so long. Ignoring the fans may turn into outward hate. As I said, releasing the toolset for any game has never been a dumb thing to do anyway. If they released the tools it would actually make them more money.
    Any engine has a certain "commercial life time", after which it is no longer profitable in commercial sense. So far I haven't seen any official statements from either Atari or Troika concerning their future D&D projects based on ToEE engine. If this happens long enough, the engine will not be interesting for any big company out there (they'll look more into NWN 2 or whatever, not because it's a better D&D engine but because it has all the latest graphical whizbangs and wazoos that will appeal to the wide mass of consumers).

    That's the real trick - most of you people out there believe something (let it be the above-quoted statement) and you don't WANT to see it any other way. The thing that totally baffles me is that you don't even want to get an official answer. You live with whatever was given to you (and I remind you that what you were told officially was "the toolset is too hard for you to use") and you are content with that. Weird.

    - Agetian
     
    Agetian, Apr 10, 2005
    #17
  3. Firestrand

    Firestrand Member

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    Not true, I know I for one, am not content.
    The unfortunate thing is that we, as a small number of consumers, have no way to pressure Troika or Atari to release said tools.
    So we are left with the ardious task of reverse engineering things, to create our own tools.

    -Firestrand
     
    Firestrand, Apr 10, 2005
    #18
  4. Agetian

    Agetian Attorney General Administrator

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    Hey Firestrand,

    I'm glad to hear that you're not content with the situation! :)
    What you say is to a certain extent true, but no one says that we have to pressure Troika or Atari to *release the tools*, we have to show them that they might consider at least giving us some answers. Of course I understand that a hope for this is small, yet I know that it's not entirely lost, and we should not diminish our hopes even more. That's the point.

    - Agetian
     
    Agetian, Apr 10, 2005
    #19
  5. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    I suspect that IF Troika and Atari ever got to the point that there was no good reason to hang onto their material, they might show some co-operation. Artist/songwriters, musicians, etc, don't usually give away copyrighted material free of charge. To say, well, your are not using it so you should give it to us for free is kind of unrealistic. As long as there is no money involved and no lawyers, everything is cool. Play the hand you are dealt, and wait and see what happens.
     
    wizgeorge, Apr 10, 2005
    #20
  6. sweet_irony

    sweet_irony Member

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    I posted this in another thread that maybe Co8 has some leverage with the upcoming 4.0.0 patch/mod. I'm not sure about the additional content (such as adding children) but if a comprehensive mod was made strictly fixing what is there (like 3.0.4), I think Co8 could maybe use that as a bargaining tool to get the WorldEd. Atari only stands to gain from the hard work here...hell, they could approve these fixes and re-release ToEE Gold or something and re-coup tons of money potentially. I know this for a fact...3.0.4 was a great beginning. Had ToEE been released in 3.0.4 condition, sales would've been MUCH greater. I'll post on the Atari forums to try and get some attention...
     
    sweet_irony, Apr 10, 2005
    #21
  7. Firestrand

    Firestrand Member

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    Well we can always try the persistence tack. Take a look at the credits page for Atari. Find email addresses for people like the producer, etc. Then email them a polite letter with a few links to the work being done.

    -Firestrand
     
    Firestrand, Apr 10, 2005
    #22
  8. almondblight

    almondblight Member

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    I imagine that point has already come. Originally, I believe, Troika and Atari were thinking that if ToEE was a hit they would develop other modules based on it, so they probably wanted to keep the editor themselves just in case. However, given the state the game was released in and the poor reaction to it, that idea seemed to be scrapped. Given that Troika is no more, the only thing the engine can do for anyone there is the off chance that they might be able to sell it to someone – but is there much of a market for an old engine that hasn't shown much financial gain? The other possability is that Atari would want to do something with it, but I doubt that too. If they did, they would probably have gotten Troika to build something for them rather than get a team of people who had no experience with the engine. Also, I don't think it made enough money for them to want to make a sequel.

    After a year and a half we haven't heard even any hints or rumors of anyone using the engine, and now the developers are closing shop. Unless there's some sort of legal warangling involved, I can't think of a plausible reason why they wouldn't release it. And as someone said above, asking around at the RPGcodex or NMA would probably be your best bet to contaccting Troika.
     
    almondblight, Apr 10, 2005
    #23
  9. Agetian

    Agetian Attorney General Administrator

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    Good point! That's exactly what I was saying, too! There are enough newer engines and engines under construction (take NWN 2 for instance), so I don't think that waiting longer is a smart thing to do for Atari/Troika since the ToEE engine will lose its appeal as a thing to buy/sell (if I explained myself clear enough).

    So, let's try something at RPGcodex or NMA. I haven't been to those sites personally - what are they like? Where do you usually go there and who do you ask if you'd like to seek a contact in a company? Does anyone have any experience with those sites?

    - Agetian
     
    Agetian, Apr 10, 2005
    #24
  10. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Not true. Remember Firestrand's report - some company is trying to buy the engine from Troika right now.

    From what I've heard, the game was actually thought to be moderately successful, numbers-wise. And the Atari moderators have stated quite clearly why there have been no sequels:

     
    Gaear, Apr 10, 2005
    #25
  11. Agetian

    Agetian Attorney General Administrator

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    I've tried sending an e-mail to one of the admins of NMA. Now we have to wait for an answer. If NMA will cooperate and help us to find a way to contact Troika or Atari we might finally get a chance to at least speak with someone official.

    - Agetian
     
    Agetian, Apr 11, 2005
    #26
  12. Agetian

    Agetian Attorney General Administrator

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    Keep your fingers crossed, not everything is lost!

    I've got a response from the administrator of NMA (Odin) who told me that he forwarded my message with links to this thread to Leon (Troika). Maybe we still have some chance of at least getting some official statement on why the tools can't be released or somehow discuss the possible terms of getting the toolset.

    Keep your fingers crossed, not everything is lost!
    I did my best to help y'all out, let's wait and see what turns out.

    - Agetian
     
    Agetian, Apr 11, 2005
    #27
  13. sweet_irony

    sweet_irony Member

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    "Odin" was the screen name of Tim Cain on various boards (read in an interview)...not sure if its the same one, however
     
    sweet_irony, Apr 11, 2005
    #28
  14. Martinius

    Martinius Member

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    Not everything is cash, even in the corporate world. Sometimes promotional content is released as to ensure ... future cash. We may only hope that ATARI and WOTC might be willing to make a wee sacrifice where TOEE is concerned if they see a way to cash on that goodwill in future. Question is, can we make them feel the taste? ;)
     
    Martinius, Apr 15, 2005
    #29
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