AC 23 bugbears

Hi,

Just wondering if anybody could tell me how it is that regular, standard bugbears in Level 2 of the Temple have an AC of 23? These aren't bugbear heroes or anything - just ordinary warriors. They're not getting cover or anything like that - this is my paladin standing toe-to-toe with one and hitting him with a longsword.

As far as I can make out they should get:
10 + 4 (chain shirt) + 2 (large shield) + 3 (natural armour - see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) + Dex bonus

This makes 19 + Dex bonus. So to get an AC of 23 they'd have to have a Dexterity of 18! Doesn't that seem a bit crazily high for an ordinary footsoldier?

Sorry I'm just getting a bit frustrated that my best warrior at Level 7 has only a 50% chance of hitting with her primary attack!

Please let me know if I'm missing something!

 

Nope, you're completely right: Bugbears (and most of the denizens of the dungeon) are have pretty high scores...heroic rolls to be honest, and most of the time they have better stats than your charcters.

The thing is, if they have the normal RAW stats, the game would be too easy. While the game can have some smart AI, you can buff before fights, have better equipment, take advantage of each and every skill, and what's more, PC classes are much better.

Sometimes it's frustrating, i agree, but by the end of the game (bah, actually at the middle) you'll find even demons easy.

The best advice? Use as many buffs you can, and every potion you encounter (bugbears are fond of bull's strength potions and healing). And choose carefully your feats and skills, in pnp you can play with a charcter with all 9s in stats and useless feats (i've done it :blush: ), but the engine will attack the weakest charcter...and you can use that in your favour

Still, yes, Bugbears are a PITA, even in vanilla TOEE.

Just assume that the Temple has recruited the best of the best, la creme du creme, thoughest as nails, the Chuck Norris of the Bugbears

 

I think the gnolls in the moathouse used to have damage reduction too, that was vicious in my early plays.

Buffs are the way to go for sure -- if you're level 7, Bull's Strength will last ya quite awhile, long enough for the bug bears, and probably a couple other encounters. Bless and Magic Weapon have fairly decent durations as well. Those three spells alone (if you're not already using a magic or masterwork weapon) will give you +4 to hit.

 

Thanks for the advice guys - and for confirming that I've not forgotten anything obvious in why they've got that AC! I'll go with the buffing/flanking/cheap tactics solution. I've already decided to leave the big room o' bugbears until I'm a level higher and have recruited Burne so I can fireball them twice each round!

 

That's nothing! One of those bugbear things did +18 damage due to STR to Elmo. +18! - in addition to weapon damage. That gives him a Strength score of 46! What is he, a polymorphed Dragon?!? He did cast some spells and drink some potions, though. That's a lot of Bull's Strength - more like Bull Shi (that's enough of that - Ed)

Their AC also changed, from about 18 to 23, depending on which character was shooting and how close they were. The Bard got only +3 for her composite bow DEX bonus, even though her DEX bonus was +5. Sometimes, I think the game was multi-factoring things into the same calculation - like, adding 4 to AC for concealment and then subtracting 4 from the attacker's attack bonus because the target was concealed, that sort of thing.

I don't agree that any monster should be given supernatural stat scores just for someones' arbitrary judgement of what is "easy". I had some trouble with those Bugbears. They should be within the normal range for the race in question or it's not AD&D. Being AD&D is one of the things the mod is all about, isn't it? A first level dungeon is supposed to be relatively easy, not a major Death Fest - Get in, Whack some critters, Get out. Not Get in, Get whacked, Reload!

And you wouldn't think it was too easy if you saw my Roll Call of Dishonour with it's shamefully huge number of consecutive misses - I never thought I'd live to see the day when a 5th level Elven Bard with a Meisterwerk composite longbow (16 STR) and a DEX of 20 using Point Blank, Precise Shot, +1 arrows and shooting at an open target out of melee could completely miss the side of a barn so many times in a row. And the number of critical misses! And my main long reach, whirlwind polearm Fighter, proudly holding his Glaive and posing for his Portrait - "Greatest Number of Critical Hits - Agrivar Glaivestorm - 2!"

That number generator really seems to cheat - the party gets far more bad shots than good shots and vice versa for the monsters. Sure, I get a few good hits for good damage and the odd critical, but we usually miss more often than we hit. If it wasn't for the Druid always casting Entangle, we'd get nowhere.

Still, all good fun!


~

 

I agree shadowblade and riven wholeheartedly. Lots of the monsters in this game have quite a few "work-arounds" in place. Also, what I've noticed that supports what shadow said was the horrible, HORRIBLE invisible issues with cover, concealment and whatever. I once, as you posted, shot in a straight line across an empty floor and got caught shooting into cover. ?????

The engine of the game is limited in the fact some of the shit is hardcoded into the temple.dll. (Just going off years of reading modders talk

However, I personally have been playing strategy games like this for about 18 years now - well into my childhood. I *love* a challenge. I honestly wish most things in the game were *more* difficult than they even are now.

One thing I've noticed about this game, is with some strong party planning and basic tactics you can coast through most of the game without using specific tactics, buffs and strategies. Glitterdust, Power attack, fireball, flank, sneak attack, invisibility, and so forth. Wake me up when something needs a silver weapon or whatever. ZZZZzzz

However, what I have also noticed about some of the more difficult battles in the game, is that you do need specific tactics, and even some of the shit spells that apply once every 5 years of adventuring sometimes are very relevant. I mean, for a long time I didn't even use total defense when making a cautious approach, or ready versus spell, or ready versus approach. Or even trip judiciously. It's far too easy to slip into auto-pilot and loose all the nuances of playing D&D. For example, I always knew ready versus spell with a ranged weapon worked, but did you know it worked for melee characters? They will run towards the caster, often times avoiding area of effect!

So that's why I explained all that. I know the bugbears in the moathouse are way too hardcore for your party of what should be 2nd-3rd level characters, but that's why it was so fun and gratifying to cut them all down eventually. All it did was make me think about my strategy more.

And yes, the number generator sucks and it's been well documented. Nothing the modders can do about it though so that's life I suppose.

 

ShadowDeth is right, it was satisfying to kill them all, eventually, after much missile attacking. And a nice bit of XP. But without the lengthy duration of Entangle, we'd have been lunch meat.

I also agree with ShiningTed - I realise that you can have Gnoll Rangers and Bugbear Barbarians etc, so they'd be able to increase a single stat by +2 every 8 levels - and these Bugbears were certainly Barbarians. But they should still be wihin the SRD's racial range and class level limits.

The funny thing is, that my 1/2 Orc Brb 1/Ftr 3 "who-wanted-to-be-a-monk-but-didn't-have-the-discipline" also scored a +18 against one of Lareth's minions while Raging with an Unarmed Strike. So as long as it cuts both ways...


Still... +18!


He he.

~

 

Were the +18's from a critical hit? 20 Strength is a +5 bonus, +2 more from Bull's Strength and another +2 from Rage is +9, double that for a crit, and we have +18. I hope it's from a crit, anyway.