5.0.x Cumulative Mods & Fixes (CMF) Bug Reports and Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by HobbesMG, Jul 16, 2006.

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  1. Shiningted

    Shiningted I changed this damn title, finally! Administrator

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    I tried learning C++ with "Complete Idiots Guide to C++' (It got much better reviews at Amazon than 'C++ for Dummies') but never could get my compiler to work :(
     
    Shiningted, May 17, 2008
    #1021
  2. GuardianAngel82

    GuardianAngel82 Senior Member

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    So is there a "Drooling Imbecile's Guide to Becoming a Babbling Moron" and "A Babbling Moron's Guide to Becoming a Complete Idiot"?

    I used to program in Fortran, Basic and Cobol, with some JCL thrown in for fun. No assembler, which still seems to be around. How much C+++++++ is required and for what tasks?

    It seems we could use a few new random encounter maps, maybe with ruins or something. I was wondering how practical it would be to create new maps by cutting up existing maps into tesselated sectors, and maybe adding a few new sectors over time, and randomly selecting a subset of the sectors, rotating them randomly, and forming an encounter map for them. They would fit together because they are tesselations (sides are 2-dimensional center-symmetric). Each encounter be would then be on a "brand-new" map.

    From the impressions I've gotten in the past, this idea would be maybe too much for the custom-built, cobbled-together original and/or modded software suite to handle. I am also under the impression that non-straight, "non-right angle"-edged orthogonal "sub-maps" are impractical.

    So, as a second question, how hard is it for a Drooling Moron to hand-craft a new map? I can still stare at the the moathouse exterior map forever. Imagine some sweet butterflies or ruins in a Balor Bitch-Slapping encounter.

    So, the questions raised are as follows:

    1. Can a map be created from sub-maps?

    2. Can a map be created from randomly selected sub-maps?

    3. Can this be done, in the game, immediately before an encounter?

    4. Do the edges of these maps have to be straight lines that follow the lines of some orthogonal grid?

    5. An unrelated question: How practical is it for a beginner to hand-craft a new map?

    Sorry I've popped up with this in this forum at this length, but I've thought about this before and need to ask before I sober up and remember this wisdom of silence.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2008
    GuardianAngel82, May 18, 2008
    #1022
  3. Shiningted

    Shiningted I changed this damn title, finally! Administrator

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    The answer to all your questions is 'perhaps'. Sectors (how the game reads maps) could certainly be specifically lined up with jpgs (how the player sees maps) since they are both big rectangular things (or possibly squares), and matching random pairs imported. An example would be the Northern Woods (Mad Hermit) map in KotB: I imported the jpgs and sector files of the smaller "True Nuetral Opening Vignette" map and slapped them onto the middle of the "Emridy meadows" map (plus many other changes). BUT you have to clear the map cache to get the game to recompile any new stuff to do with maps (thats why we tell you to clear the map cache for major updates like a new CMF, but people who fix little scripting or dialogue issues may not bother to emphasise it). So you could really only do it once per 'sitting' - even if it made a new random encounter map every time, if you haven't quit the game and restarted, with the 'clearing the map cache' box checked, then it won't work.

    And it may not work anyway, because we've never tried it :wave:

    But I agree we need some new random encounter maps. One idea I had was a small cave complex - land on a map of a cave entrance, and if you want to go into it you will find randomly chosen caves, tunnels inside etc. Liv recently posted a thing about how to randomise or give multiple exit options to a portal, (ie go down the blue 'stairs' icon to go in and you could randomly control what map they land on, so its different each time) then you put an invisible spawner in each room and it spawns goblins / orcs / trolls and ettins depending on level and random outcome.

    We could also do a ruined tower complex, with randomly chosen maps for each level you go up, a la the towers in the wilderness in U5: Lazarus.

    Both would be a lot of work and require some map-making (edit: graohical map-making I mean - someone with graphical ability), but I would regard them as being quite straight-forward to do and add a great deal to the game. Randomosity means better replay value, imho. Also, you could some minor unique magic items at the bottom (or top) of the complex, so people who couldn't be bothered could just not go in, while those who do go in could get a decent pay-off.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2008
    Shiningted, May 18, 2008
    #1023
  4. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    Something like that would be cool for the level where Zuggtmoy dwells...that level it's awesome, with all those rooms...plus, it has the elemental symbols:

    you enter the room of water and bang teleport to a random encounter (i'm dying to try my hand at a snowy map, some frost giants, winter wolves... and there's an unused animation for rain too...) which could be a small map related to the element...

    meh, i'm delirious again :roll:
     
    Half Knight, May 18, 2008
    #1024
  5. Shiningted

    Shiningted I changed this damn title, finally! Administrator

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    Yes you are.

    Someone did some snowy map stuff a while back, if I remember correctly it was Ax Thrower.

    EDIT: And yes we need to start getting those weather animations going!
     
    Shiningted, May 18, 2008
    #1025
  6. GuardianAngel82

    GuardianAngel82 Senior Member

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    Does the map cache clearing have to happen only at the start of the game? Are all the maps created at startup?

    Does the spawning occur right before an encounter? The "cats" in KotB seem only to work once per game. It would be kind of cool if we had random encounters on entering already-cleared old maps. We could use a map like the Deklo Grove for encounters with Co8 user- generated "enemy" monster or adventure parties, maybe with a standard dialog tree and scypting. We'd have to tone-down what is dropped, though.

    Maybe I shouldn't refer to the map sub-areas as sectors. I thought of this because it seems very labor-intensive to create a whole new map from scratch. It seems like it would be a way to combine many people's contributions into a larger map, maybe "during" the game.

    Rotating doesn't seem possible because the maps seem strictly 2d. Indexing a map 90 degrees would simply mean sideways trees, etc. If the maps were 3d, we could have view changes instead of trying to find things behind trees and walls. Didn't they have that in the Troika post-apocolypse game?
     
    GuardianAngel82, May 18, 2008
    #1026
  7. Shiningted

    Shiningted I changed this damn title, finally! Administrator

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    Eeek! Where to start :eek:mg:

    Yes, the maps - the graphics anyway - are 2d. The objects, trees, doors etc are 3d models and can be rotated, lit from different directions etc, and there is a certain Z dimension to the way the game handles the maps (you can walk in the dust in the moathouse, for instance, and half your model seems to sink in and disappear) but otherwise what you say is quite correct. The game is not built for 3d in the way the post-apocalyptic one looks to have been (or NWN from what I have seen). Thats a real tragedy, I was thinking just last night how nice it would be to have a genuine Z axis to do everything from climbing to flight.
    Almost certainly yes, and yes. Think how long the game takes to start when you clear it, vs if you don't - that extra time is the game recompiling the map sectors. I seriously doubt it could do that on the fly: I won't say absolutely not, but this stuff is not just what makes us say "clear the map cache" on CMFs - its also what makes us say (some of the time) "start a new game", because recompiled map data can clash with existing map data recorded in saves, if it has been changed by something like adding a patch. Doing it on the fly would obviously compound that problem.
    Yes, because that stuff is added to the map as needed, not written into the nature of the map like sector data and mobs. Think any random encounter - all spawned on the spot as needed.
    Definitely possible, and worth doing :) BUT you have to remember you have to check what is and isn't there: how do you know if a map is cleared? We could add death flags and count, but what if the map is effectively cleared without the deaths, such as a wizard charming everyone in sight, then 'losing' them during world-map travel? You have to think of this stuff because people play the game in some wierd ways ;) To do the moathouse respawn I had to add one invisible critter to check for the bugbears, if people by-passed them, and another to check for the bandits out the front, if people bypassed them (with all the secret doors in the moathouse you can bypass a lot of the monsters) and take into account whether the gnolls are alive, dead, bought off etc and whether Lareth's men were killed or if you strolled in and recruited him without the bloodbath. And now I tihnk about it I don't think I checked the top floor, I just assumed that people had at least cleared that, although really you could go in the back way, kill the bandits inside and go straight down the stairs to arrive next to Lubash.

    If you don't do all that checking, you run the risk of your respawn mosnters appearing near some overlooked monster that the party by-passed on their first run through, and then you get lots of inter-monster fighting, which is fine, and friendly fire messages, which isn't, or co-operative fighting among unfriendly monsters which is just silly.

    So to recap, yes it can be done, and yes it should be done - particularly for a small map like the Deklo Grove - but there's more work there than just adding a spawner.
     
    Shiningted, May 19, 2008
    #1027
  8. GuardianAngel82

    GuardianAngel82 Senior Member

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    + So no randomly-generated and/or piecework maps. Any new mapwork must be entire maps. Got it.

    To do the moathouse respawn I had to add one invisible critter to check for the bugbears, if people by-passed them, and another to check for the bandits out the front, if people bypassed them (with all the secret doors in the moathouse you can bypass a lot of the monsters) and take into account whether the gnolls are alive, dead, bought off etc and whether Lareth's men were killed or if you strolled in and recruited him without the bloodbath.

    + Is this necessary, or can you automatically clear everything from a map between each encounter? Do you selectively remove each monster?

    And now I tihnk about it I don't think I checked the top floor, I just assumed that people had at least cleared that, although really you could go in the back way, kill the bandits inside and go straight down the stairs to arrive next to Lubash.

    + So, they might still be there after the respawn. Hmm.

    If you don't do all that checking, you run the risk of your respawn mosnters appearing near some overlooked monster that the party by-passed on their first run through, and then you get lots of inter-monster fighting, which is fine, and friendly fire messages, which isn't, or co-operative fighting among unfriendly monsters which is just silly.

    + One of my favorite things to do in Fallout was to take advantage of intergroup fighting.

    My humble thanks Oh Great Shining One.
     
    GuardianAngel82, May 19, 2008
    #1028
  9. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    Reply to CMF Submissions Thread posts 150 & 151

    @Erkper

    Good one! :clap:
    I always felt something strange about that dialog, but didn't noticed what exactly, you're right. Should be added in the next CMF. :yes:

    @Gaear

    That's fine, cos if people wants to change for their personal install the colors availables, it will make it easier. When i need or want something original changed i use the dat extractor, but not all people do that.
    In any case, a later small mod whit the changes will do it perfect. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2008
    Half Knight, May 28, 2008
    #1029
  10. ben34

    ben34 Member

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods and Fixes (CMF) Submissions Thread

    I found a bug with the spiritual weapon that enimies in the hedrack level summon the problem is one they are not unsummoned automatically when the enemy dies and two they are not able to be targeted to attack magically or physically. I am not sure if this has been reported yet or not. Plus I found a scathere error with spunior casting a magic missle at a dire boar at the moathouse, the game freezes up just like the scather fire damage counterattack bug!! well thats it for now unless we can fix the headrack and noad level lag, I w ould say the game runs OK other than that! you just have to save alot and proceed with extreem care but progress is possible. Also I have 5.0.5 installed and was wondering if any later versions are avalable yet? And as a close I want to be directed to someone who can tell me what tools I need to download to start making new mods of my own, I want to stay away from KOTB style evironments and try to make new TOEE enviromental maps if possible, mabey create a sort of construction set simialar to neverwinter nights but with TOEE toolset capabilities>!>? To avoid sounding nieve I realize this is not going to be easyily acomplished, but please if someone knows I am a good bug identifier and tester because I am very thourgh and I test all aspects of the game. thank you!!
     
    ben34, Jun 3, 2008
    #1030
  11. ben34

    ben34 Member

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    Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods and Fixes (CMF) Submissions Thread

    Join Date: Feb 2008
    Posts: 41 Re: 5.0.x Cumulative Mods and Fixes (CMF) Submissions Thread

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I found a bug with the spiritual weapon that enimies in the hedrack level summon the problem is one they are not unsummoned automatically when the enemy dies and two they are not able to be targeted to attack magically or physically. I am not sure if this has been reported yet or not. Plus I found a scathere error with spunior casting a magic missle at a dire boar at the moathouse, the game freezes up just like the scather fire damage counterattack bug!! well thats it for now unless we can fix the headrack and noad level lag, I w ould say the game runs OK other than that! you just have to save alot and proceed with extreem care but progress is possible. Also I have 5.0.5 installed and was wondering if any later versions are avalable yet? And as a close I want to be directed to someone who can tell me what tools I need to download to start making new mods of my own, I want to stay away from KOTB style evironments and try to make new TOEE enviromental maps if possible, mabey create a sort of construction set simialar to neverwinter nights but with TOEE toolset capabilities>!>? To avoid sounding nieve I realize this is not going to be easyily acomplished, but please if someone knows I am a good bug identifier and tester because I am very thourgh and I test all aspects of the game. thank you!!
     
    ben34, Jun 4, 2008
    #1031
  12. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    @ben -

    I've moved two successive posts of yours now from the CMF submissions thread here to the CMF discussion thread. Please don't post in the submissions thread unless you have a submission.
     
    Gaear, Jun 4, 2008
    #1032
  13. Shadowblade2

    Shadowblade2 Established Member

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    I have Co8 ver 5, Jade Empress, new spells and all that.

    I accepted the orc quest but the journal entry is black and the character won't talk about it now I've killed them all.

    My version of Elmo did not get his Wep Focus and Wep Spec feats - he still has only 4 feats at 4th level. Did the mod not "take" properly?

    There is a blackout on the Druid spell list, I think under Tree Shape

    Furnok has 11 spell points but only 10 developed skills - I figure he should have Sleight of Hand as well.

    It doesn't matter which female I talk to in Nulb, they are all the one with the item needed for Desperate Housewives.

    ~
     
    Shadowblade2, Jun 5, 2008
    #1033
  14. ben34

    ben34 Member

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    I know you mean well but if you truely had intellignece you would see that it was really your fault and I did try to delete it but couldn't because of denied access from your server. Not trying to sound rude, but I felt like I have been pointed at by a stinky finger in the first place. I hope you have the intelligence and understanding enought to see this. For I treat everyone the way I want to be treated the golden rule. Hears how I would have confronted me, Ben34 I don't know if you relize that you had a double entry, I would exspect you to have deleted it but your access is restricted and I had to do it for you(gaear) so in the future just remember if you need to repost for any errors just use the "edit" tab underneath the post you made, please do not double post unless it was an accident. So yeah I will not do that again gaear, and it was actually an accident because I ussually do use the edit button I just thought that I cold copy and past a new post then edit the spelling error and I was going to simply delete the old post but it denied me deleting capabilities.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
    ben34, Jun 8, 2008
    #1034
  15. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    :dizzy: It was my fault that you posted, twice, in a forum that has long been limited to mod submissions?

    I'm not sure what you're on about re: the double posting (and I don' really care about that so much anyway, as you can see by the fact that both of your posts are still alive and well in this thread) but the message is still simple: do not make commentary posts in the CMF submissions thread. That is all.

    Now, before you get a mind to start in again about something that was forgotten four days ago, heed my words: I'm in no mood to play pattycake with you on this. Let it be, or you will find yourself on a ban vacation.
     
    Gaear, Jun 9, 2008
    #1035
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