3.5 Touch spells

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Basil the Timid, May 31, 2008.

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  1. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    I doubt I could even imagine in my wildest dreams the scripting that you are attempting to create.

    I was just testing an inflictor cleric/rogue/monk and sneak attack works normally with Flurry; however, I just noticed that inflict_wounds can be cast at range! (I had already noticed that Cure_wounds performed that way - too generous). I have a feeling that this is one of those things that cannot be corrected. And....I also noticed that I could not Magic Weapon my monks hands (or gloves!). Of course, I could just be doing something wrong.

    I doubt it, but I do wonder if it would be possible to have touch spells discharge when a multi-class monk uses Stunning Fist, rather than just his regular unarmed strike/Flurry.

    Good luck, chief!
     
  2. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    The gloves (gauntlets?) may be a bug, but Improved Unarmed Strike makes the monk do lethal damage, which means the game treats the monk as armed. However, the monk is still *unarmed* in fact, so the Druid spell Magic Fang may be required instead if Magic Weapon.

    Magic Fang (S) -- the druid overbites his bottom lip and crooks his index and middle fingers in the form of a rabbit's buck teeth.

    --thearioch
     
  3. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    SRD:
    A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
     
  4. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    Ok. I have modified posts 26 & 29 in this thread to make a few corrections and additions. I just learned that crits and sneak attacks DO apply to spells like Contagion and Ray of Enfeeblement. COOL!!
     
  5. grinner666

    grinner666 Member

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    You're right about that, but you should therefore remove the Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Clumsiness spells from your list ... neither does any sort of damage (they provide a penalty, see above) and therefore critical hits and sneak attacks wouldn't apply.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2008
  6. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Btw, I have got a script to test that should deal with everything (30' ranged attacks, flatfootedness, concealment to avoid being snuck, invisible rogues who sneak everything etc) EXCEPT flanking: the flanking flag is only set during the course of the attack, and whether I can read it, I don't know, I have to test. Obviously having it work on all sneak attacks except flank-induced ones would be a real disappointment. I'll keep going at it.
     
  7. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    Grinner, read it again; there is mention that ability penalty spells can have sneak attack apply, but not crits. This was a specific example in Complete Arcane.

    Ted, YOU THE MAN!!
     
  8. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Yes. Yes I am. If the damn thing works. In which case, we can decide precisely what spells to put it in later.

    Anyways, off to test right now :)

    EDIT: Just looking inside the scripts they almost all (Flame Tongue, Polar Ray, Scorching Ray etc) seem to be set up for critical hit damage: is it just a theory that this isn't working, or has it been tested, or was it just mentioned to be thorough?

    Also, Acid Splash seems to be set to do COLD rather than ACID damage in the event of a critical (almost certainly a sloppy copy-paste from Ray of Frost): has anyone noticed this in action? Or would there be a reason for it?
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2008
  9. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Update on this: I suspect very seriously I am going to have to renege on the 'touch attacks' thing and only implement this for ranged touch attacks. That sux royally, but I am getting hit by the double whammy that I can't seem to read the combat flags (D20CAF) when I need to based on touch attacks - they return 1 for a hit and 2 for a critical, not an array to logically AND for this or that flag (like other attacks do) - this means I can't check if critter is flanked - and, further more, some of the spells like Ghoul's Touch and Shocking Grasp simply set the caster as the target - since the spell empowers the caster to zap their enemies - and then the engine does the rest, so there is no way I can see to script for anything to happen to the target because the script isn't accessed after that. I have had Agetian helping with this and he even attempted 'Summon Steve Moret' but I just can't see how we can get around either of these. Of course, if a workaround does present itself, great.

    I will continue with the ranged attacks, though, because fixing the bug half the time is better than not fixing it at all (and if this is RAW then I consider it a bug) and it means those folks who go 2wf and give their rogue a level of Wizard for True Strike will still get full sneak-attack value for their 0-level spells when they aren't close enough for Full Attack. Also, having a proper scripted sneak-attack effect could prove very handy later on.

    On a happier note, the spells I checked (Acid Splash, and the other two mentioned above, plus a few other ranged ones) are all set up to do critical hit damage, and do it, too. Basil - can I get a definitive RAW statement on the ability-score spells like Ray of Enfeeblement? If you already mentioned it above, feel free to copy-paste.
     
  10. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    @Ted, thank you for the update. I agree that something is better than nothing and I am confident that at some point in the near future a revelation will hit you to handle the unfinished part.

    The following ranged touch spells qualify for both sneak attacks and critical damage unless mentioned otherwise.

    Searing Light - ranged
    Produce Flame - ranged and touch
    Acid Splash - ranged
    Ray of Frost - ranged
    Ray of Enfeeblement - ranged; sneak ok, no crits
    Melf's Acid Arrow - ranged; sneak ok, crit doubles only first round damage
    Ray of Clumsiness - ranged; sneak ok, no crits
    Disintegrate - ranged
    Fire Seeds (Acorn Grenades) - ranged
    Sunbeam - ranged
    Scorching Ray - ranged; critical, sneak attack, and P.B. shot can only apply to first ray
    Enervation - ranged
    Polar Ray - ranged
    Energy Drain - ranged

    If for example an acid arrow gets a crit, the acid damage is doubled (on the first round only). If it qualifies for a sneak attack, the extra damage is also acid damage.

    In the case of spells or effects that deal energy drain (e.g. enervation) or ability damage (but not ability penalty), the critical doubles the effect (beware wights and wraiths, etc...).

    If these types of attacks, or one that results in an ability penalty (e.g. ray of enfeeblement), qualify for a sneak attack, then the extra damage is negative energy damage.

    Regarding Concealment (Blur, Displacement, Blink): Any concealment prevents Sneak Attacks! I only stumbled on that due to this research. I have yet to notice how this issue plays out in ToEE.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2008
  11. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Ok, negative energy damage - I got it.

    Concealment can be scripted for.
     
  12. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    I thought I'd resurrect this thread to see if any other geniuses out there have any idea what can be done to implement this part of 3.5 rules to the game.
     
  13. marc1967

    marc1967 Established Member

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    I have some questions about melee touch attack spells.

    There seem to be two ways that melee touch attack spells are implemented in the game:

    1. The spell's range is Personal.

    Chill Touch
    Dispel Evil
    Ghoul Touch
    Shocking Grasp
    Vampiric Touch

    First, when the spell is cast it look like it fizzles, but the spell actually appears above your portrait waiting to be discharged. The spell will stay available forever until it is discharged, or another melee touch spell is cast.

    Then, on your any turn you can use it from the wheel and select a target (Combat --> Offense --> Discharge Touch Attack), and this point a melee touch attack is made.
    2. The spell's range is 'Touch'

    Inflict Wounds
    Poison
    Slay Living

    The caster never actually makes a melee touch attack, it is essentially a spell with range of 0.​

    So, some questions/observations:

    1. Is there a way to allow the personal spells from category 1 be used the turn they are cast, instead of waiting until the next turn to discharge it? Would making those spells a Free Action work?

    2. Regarding the second category, could some sort of attack be scripted during the OnSpellEffect() processing, to make a simulated melee touch attack on the target before activating the effect of the spell?

    3. Vampiric touch is currently screwey because while it uses the discharge method of casting the spell, the rules file makes the spell Touch instead of Personal, and allows it to target others. This is confusing when you cast it...

    - it will fizzle if you target your enemy, wasting the spell.

    - also, you can actually target your friend which will give them the ability to discharge the spell as an attack. Actually kind of neat. =P

    Recommend making this spell personal like Chill Touch and Ghoul Touch, unless I am missing something.

     
  14. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    As far as I know this already works, you just click on the target right after casting. Maybe you have 'end turn after default action' enabled?
    As for simulating melee touch attack, there's the perform_touch_attack function, though it might be internally flagged as a ranged attack. I recall messing quite a bit with it for Temple+. Likewise for Vampiric touch which was quite clusterfucky.
     
  15. marc1967

    marc1967 Established Member

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    Ug, I was always going to the radial selection after the casting the spell. The green was drained from my hourglass thing, and the radial selection was in red so it was unusable. I never just thought to click on the guy, thanks.

    Vampiric Touch works fine (other than the not giving you HPs thing), once the casting is set to Personal like Shocking Grasp. It also does 1d6 + caster level, instead of 1d6 + 1d6 per two level. Ok so it is all messed up hehe.

    Also, since I was unaware enough to miss the touch attack thing, am I missing something with Dispel Evil and Dispel Water? The touch attack never dispels any creature, even though it allows you to go through the motion of making the attack. I've tried it on a bevy of creatures like Quasit, Vrock, etc. for Dispel Evil. And Water Elemental, Water Snake for Dispel Water.

    The only thing it seems to do is give you the +4 deflection bonus, which oddly applies to any creature at all in the case of Dispel Air/earth/fire/water.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
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