3.5 Touch spells

So, the question of precision-based damage being applied to rays, orbs, and touch remains. If not, could it / would it be applied in the future?

 

It sounds like some whine should be served with it at least....

Anyway, do any other Monk ranged weapons (wither Monk-specific such as shuriken or regular such as crossbow) get Stunning Fist? I suspect not (at least in RAW). I'd personally say either both shuriken and rays can be used or cannot be used with "stunning Fist." And if pressed, I'd say 'not.'

--thearioch

Edit: Ignore the above and see my next post in this thread.

 

Stunning Fist cannot be applied to ranged attacks. It CAN be applied in conjunction with Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Produce Flame (melee), Flame Blade (cheesy), etc....

 

I went ahead and checked the rules, and think I have the correct answer: None of your examples are likely implementable in ToEE and Flame Blade isn't allowed in 3.5 at all.

Chill Touch, Produce Flame (Melee), and Shocking Grasp are all Touch Attacks which (as the descriptions are silent) may be delivered with an unarmed melee attack as well a a Touch attack. The difference is that an unarmed melee attack uses the target's normal AC while the Touch attack alone uses the target's Touch AC (usually lower).

I don't think the ToEE engine can handle this (I may be wrong -- I am by no means an expert)). Also, normal unarmed attacks draw AoOs, Touch attacks don't (Monks and other with Improved Unarmed Attack would not suffer AoOs either). Another complex scenario the ToEE engine would need to handle.

Flame Blade should never be able to deliver Stunning Fist -- while its attack is a Touch attack, the spell description specifically says that the attack is made as if using a Scimitar (i.e., the rule allowing Touch attacks to be made as if unarmed should not apply in this case). As Stunning Fist requires an unarmed attack, one should not be able to deliver use Stunning Fist with Flame Blade.

--thearioch



--thearioch

 

I agree and that is why I implied Flame Blade should be an exception (serious sharp cheese stench).

I thought Greylan said he had some experience with discharging during a Flurry, but I suppose it didn't calculate the unarmed strike. Perhaps if one checks Deal Lethal Damage or Flurry of Blows, then the engine can require a proper hit vs full AC and then stack both damages.

At any rate, if the troublesome issue is that the engine cannot handle the choice between the target's Touch AC or Full AC, then let's make it simple - it always chooses Full AC if the character has Improved Unarmed Strike and it always chooses Touch AC if not.

The Sneak Attack situation does not have this complication of choice. Rays, orbs, and Touch spells always use the Touch AC.

 

OK, now that I have sorted out my start game problems, I have done some testing on ranged & melee touch spells. I am convinced that there is no stacking with sneak attacks or improved unarmed strike, and I have also noticed that one cannot cast, move, and touch which is RAW. This applies to Shocking Grasp, but not to Inflict Light Wounds. Strange, indeed!

Is any plan to make Touch Spells follow RAW in terms of stacking with Unarmed Strike and Sneak Attack? Is there any agreement as to when a CMF 5.0.6 patch will be available?

I would be happy to work on this if someone can point me in the right direction.

 

@Ted, I am REALLY happy you have decided to take-on this bull by the horns.

c.f. Complete Arcane, pp.85-86
The following spells qualify for both sneak attacks and critical damage unless mentioned otherwise.

From the manual.pdf:
Inflict _ wounds (excluding Mass) - touch
Searing Light - ranged
Contagion - touch
Slay Living - touch
Produce Flame - ranged and touch
Acid Splash - ranged
Ray of Frost - ranged
Shocking Grasp - touch
Chill Touch - touch; sneak ok, both strength (Fort neg.) and negative damage doubled on critical
Ray of Enfeeblement - ranged; sneak ok, no crits
Melf's Acid Arrow - ranged; sneak ok, crit doubles only first round damage
Vampiric Touch - Touch

Darmagon’s New and Changed Spells (5.0.0 release):
Ray of Clumsiness - ranged; sneak ok, no crits
Disintegrate - ranged

Are there any newer spells?
Flame Blade - Touch
Fire Seeds (Acorn Grenades) - ranged
Harm - Touch
Sunbeam - ranged (Undead and Drow beware)
Scorching Ray - ranged; critical, sneak attack, and P.B. shot can only apply to first ray
Enervation - ranged
Polar Ray - ranged
Energy Drain - ranged

 

I'm not sure where you're going with this, Basil. IUS makes your unarmed attacks (a) deal lethal damage and (b) not trigger AoOs because you are considered armed. A Touch Attack is considered "armed", so should behave the same way. Are you asking about the higher unarmed damage monks do? If so, my understanding is that multiclassed monk/rogues would do the monk unarmed damage plus spell damage.

--thearioch

 

I know that in RAW, Monk/Rogues can Sneak Attack. I was just wondering how the engine handled it.

I also wanted to clarify something. If for example an acid arrow gets a crit, the acid damage is doubled (on the first round only). If it qualifies for a sneak attack, the extra damage is also acid damage.

In the case of spells or effects that deal energy drain or ability damage (not ability penalty), the critical doubles the effect (beware wights and wraiths, etc...). If these types of attacks, or one that results in an ability penalty, qualify for a sneak attack, then the extra damage is negative energy damage.

Regarding Concealment (Blur, Displacement, Blink): Any concealment prevents Sneak Attacks! I only stumbled on that due to this research.